Is TAB really that evil?

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1503737325' post='3360593']
I suppose its futile for me to point out that OP was in fact not asking about the relative merits of tab vs score but wanting opinions on tab as a learning device compared to working it out.
[/quote]

Yep. I think that got answered in the first half dozen replies. Then it grew legs....

[SpondonBassed]

^

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' timestamp='1503736238' post='3360581']

Reading notation is just a handy skill and closes some things off to you if you can't do it but it's no more elitist than being able to play slap (I can't!). If you don't have time or don't care then no big deal. Like many things, if you *really* need it then you'll know.
[/quote]

Yep. I can identify with this outlook.

Just in the interest of clarity though, I wasn't complaining about notation being elitist in and of itself; more the attitude of some of it's proponents. Most of the pros I've had the good fortune to share a stage with have been very easy to work with; but every now and again I'd meet someone with - how should I put it? - a bit of an attitude. As I said before though, it happens on both sides of the debate.

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' timestamp='1503736238' post='3360581']
I learned to read notation at school when I was about 9. I then played percussion in brass bands of all things where reading was pretty much a necessity. I've no recollection of ever finding it particularly difficult. Sight reading on the other hand is something else... it comes through a lot of experience as you don't have time to *think*. If I have to write out a bass part then it feels natural to use notation.

Reading notation is just a handy skill and closes some things off to you if you can't do it but it's no more elitist than being able to play slap (I can't!). If you don't have time or don't care then no big deal. Like many things, if you *really* need it then you'll know.
[/quote]

[b]Elite[/b]
Definitions
n. A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status: "In addition to notions of social equality there was much emphasis on the role of elites and of heroes within them” ( Times Literary Supplement).[list]
[*]n. The best or most skilled members of a group.
[*]adj. Of high birth or social position; aristocratic or patrician.
[*]adj. Representing the choicest or most select of a group.
[*]n. A special group or social class of people which have a superior intellectual, social or economic status as, the elite of society.
[*]n. Someone who is among the best at certain task.
[/list]
It always makes me wonder how intelligent people forget that they are intelligent and that not everyone can or indeed wants to reach the heights of intellectual achievement that they have. For clever folk it is an especially small minded way of looking at life. Don't you think?

I can read and write to a standard that suits my needs. There is no need to force me to learn an abstract system like score. It is NOT intuitive.

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1503741118' post='3360630']

[b]Elite[/b]
Definitions
n. A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status: "In addition to notions of social equality there was much emphasis on the role of elites and of heroes within them” ( Times Literary Supplement).[list]
[*]n. The best or most skilled members of a group.
[*]adj. Of high birth or social position; aristocratic or patrician.
[*]adj. Representing the choicest or most select of a group.
[*]n. A special group or social class of people which have a superior intellectual, social or economic status as, the elite of society.
[*]n. Someone who is among the best at certain task.
[/list]
It always makes me wonder how intelligent people forget that they are intelligent and that not everyone can or indeed wants to reach the heights of intellectual achievement that they have. For clever folk it is an especially small minded way of looking at life. Don't you think?

I can read and write to a standard that suits my needs. There is no need to force me to learn an abstract system like score. It is NOT intuitive.
[/quote]

Seeing as you answered my comment... that reads of "chip on the shoulder" frankly. I don't know why.

I'm far from the best bass player in the world. You're almost certainly a more skilled bass player than me. Does that make you elite? I happen to be able to read notation due to the background I happen to have. I find it handy. Lucky me. Does it make me 'special' - no, I don't think so.

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' timestamp='1503748883' post='3360678']
Seeing as you answered my comment... that reads of "chip on the shoulder" frankly. I don't know why.

I'm far from the best bass player in the world. You're almost certainly a more skilled bass player than me. Does that make you elite? I happen to be able to read notation due to the background I happen to have. I find it handy. Lucky me. Does it make me 'special' - no, I don't think so.
[/quote]

I didn't write it that way but you can take what you want from it. It was merely an answer to your comment so I see no need to be personal about it. I'll leave it there. Enjoy your weekend.

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1503749774' post='3360683']
I didn't write it that way but you can take what you want from it. It was merely an answer to your comment so I see no need to be personal about it. I'll leave it there. Enjoy your weekend.
[/quote]

Apologies if I misread your comment. You have a good (notation free) weekend yourself

[SpondonBassed]

Ta

[peteb]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1503730982' post='3360539']


To quote Marcus Miller: 'why wouldn't you'?
[/quote]
Because of all the (blues and rock) gigs I've been offered, I have never once been asked if I can read or even seen anyone with a score.

When I have been up for gigs that I would consider a step up from what I usually do, whether I could read or not has been a non issue, more can I commit to going away for a few weeks at a moments notice! I'm currently helping out with stage management with one of the biggest blues festivals in Europe. You see quite a lot of the same players turning up in 'name' artist's backing bands - all jobbing pros, many of whom I imagine can read. However, I very much doubt (to the point of absolute certainty) that when they were offered the gigs that they are getting paid for over the weekend that they were given any score to learn, or even asked if they could read. Certainly they there is no musical score backstage whatsoever...!

[lowdown]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1503750554' post='3360699']
Because of all the (blues and rock) gigs I've been offered, I have never once been asked if I can read or even seen anyone with a score.

When I have been up for gigs that I would consider a step up from what I usually do, whether I could read or not has been a non issue, more can I commit to going away for a few weeks at a moments notice! I'm currently helping out with stage management with one of the biggest blues festivals in Europe. You see quite a lot of the same players turning up in 'name' artist's backing bands - all jobbing pros, many of whom I imagine can read. However, I very much doubt (to the point of absolute certainty) that when they were offered the gigs that they are getting paid for over the weekend that they were given any score to learn, or even asked if they could read. Certainly they there is no musical score backstage whatsoever...!
[/quote]

Mostly always the case with this musical style of gig, along with non Big Band Jazz as well (although chord charts or fake books do appear at times).

Professional shows/TV/film sessions/selective recording sessions/backing turns or acts. Depping in certain function bands and corporate event productions/cruises/classical concerts and broadcasts, amature drama orchestras and bands, marching bands, forces bands, arranging/orchestrating and engraving (the list goes on and on).
Fluent, or good reasonable sight reading is still big business.

TAB readers/musicians who want to make the step up to any of the work or opportunities mentioned above these days, would know deep down, that TAB knowledge only would not be enough to get you anywhere near the front door. They will have to raise their game. However, not all do and are perfectly happy doing what they do with TAB, which is mainly (I guess) for education and learning purpose. It is pointless ramming it down their throats and is not really productive

The OP question was about using TAB when learning songs versus ears. TAB is no more EVIL than Notation is '[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]incomprehensible gibberish'.[/font][/color]
[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]I became fluent in sight reading over a period of time, I didn't just wake up and it happened. Luckily enough, a lot of my reading experience was gained in the heat of battle when I was young [/color][/font][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828](winging it on gigs/cruises and shows using my ears, and accommodating MD's of course)[/color][/font]
[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828] [/color][/font]

Edited August 26, 2017 by lowdown

[ambient]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1503750554' post='3360699']
Because of all the (blues and rock) gigs I've been offered, I have never once been asked if I can read or even seen anyone with a score.

When I have been up for gigs that I would consider a step up from what I usually do, whether I could read or not has been a non issue, more can I commit to going away for a few weeks at a moments notice! I'm currently helping out with stage management with one of the biggest blues festivals in Europe. You see quite a lot of the same players turning up in 'name' artist's backing bands - all jobbing pros, many of whom I imagine can read. However, I very much doubt (to the point of absolute certainty) that when they were offered the gigs that they are getting paid for over the weekend that they were given any score to learn, or even asked if they could read. Certainly they there is no musical score backstage whatsoever...!
[/quote]

I think it's quite a genre specific thing tbh.

[peteb]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1503752582' post='3360720']


Mostly always the case with this musical style of gig, along with non Big Band Jazz as well (although chord charts or fake books do appear at times).

Professional shows/TV/film sessions/selective recording sessions/backing turns or acts. Depping in certain function bands and corporate event productions/cruises/classical concerts and broadcasts, amature drama orchestras and bands, marching bands, forces bands, arranging/orchestrating and engraving (the list goes on and on).
Fluent, or good reasonable sight reading is still big business.

TAB readers/musicians who want to make the step up to any of the work or opportunities mentioned above these days, would know deep down, that TAB knowledge only would not be enough to get you anywhere near the front door. They will have to raise their game. However, not all do and are perfectly happy doing what they do with TAB, which is mainly (I guess) for education and learning purpose. It is pointless ramming it down their throats.

The OP question was about using TAB when learning songs versus ears. TAB is no more EVIL than Notation is '[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]incomprehensible gibberish'.[/font][/color]
[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]I became fluent in sight reading over a period of time, I didn't just wake up and it happened. Luckily enough, a lot of my reading experience was gained in the heat of battle when I was young [/color][/font][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828](winging it on gigs/cruises and shows using my ears, and accommodating MD's of course)[/color][/font]
[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828] [/color][/font]
[/quote]
Surely it is undeniable that if you want the gigs that you mention then you must be a proficient reader. Equally there are many pro gigs where reading is a non issue.

As far as tab goes, it is just a tool to show you how to play a certain piece that you have already heard. I would say that if a guitar player wants to learn to play Eruption, then an accurate tab will be of more use than notation! But obviously it has no professional applications and you will learn more developing your ear rather than using tab as a shortcut.

[chris_b]

So, moving on. . . . for the average player learning to play by ear and recognising shapes, patterns and intervals is a far more useful ability to develop.

I got some scathing comments when I suggested that TAB (and even notation) in the Duck Dunn book was unnecessary, but Stax is the ultimate "ear" music.

Listen to it and play it. Duck Dunn's chops are still the foundation of modern bass playing, in most genres.

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1503752582' post='3360720']
...TAB is no more EVIL than Notation is '[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]incomprehensible gibberish'...[/font][/color]
[/quote]

Thank you.

[DaveFry]

The map is not the territory . *






* Alfred Korzybski

[DJpullchord]

If you can't do both, you're crap.



Just jesting!

thats the first time I've seen tab shown in the manner above. Much better than the normal lines and numbers.
If learning a classical piece on a guitar, it's great to know what the key signature is, what position the left hand should be in etc.

I'd go one step further and say that your staves and dots is even better when an indication for which finger is used ie 1-4 for left and pima for right.
More info the better.

I suppose we've all learned differently. Some in lessons and some sat at home with a tape deck, copying each note till something sounds right and the many other ways.

Perhaps one has a better understanding of musical theory, if they can slice up bars visually?
I don't.

[DaveFry]

[quote name='DaveFry' timestamp='1503760816' post='3360780']
The map is not the territory . *






* Alfred Korzybski
[/quote]

I fear I need to explain further for fear of accusation of elitism .

- TAB notation is like a map representing a tune we wish to learn .
- Conventional notation is another map for the same territory .
- Apparently John Paul Jones uses his own map that he learnt from his father to write in a sort of shorthand in order to remember ideas that come to him .
- The Rocksmith visual thing of a fretboard at the bottom and the notes coming down the screen in time is another map .

They are all just maps for tunes .
Once you learn or know the territory ( the tune ) you should have no need of a map any more .

The best map ( in this tune-learning scenario ) is the one that works best for the map reader to learn the territory .


Just trying to add perspective .

[dlloyd]

[quote name='DaveFry' timestamp='1503768101' post='3360823']
I fear I need to explain further for fear of accusation of elitism .
[/quote]

No, seriously... thanks. I'm reading up on him right now.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1503741118' post='3360630']It always makes me wonder how intelligent people forget that they are intelligent and that not everyone can or indeed wants to reach the heights of intellectual achievement that they have. For clever folk it is an especially small minded way of looking at life. Don't you think?
[/quote]

I really have to address this. It's bullshit IMO.

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1503775701' post='3360877']
I really have to address this. It's bullshit IMO.
[/quote]

Thanks for the sentiment. I stand by my words though. You have reinforced my opinion.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' timestamp='1503737420' post='3360595']


Yep. I think that got answered in the first half dozen replies. Then it grew legs....
[/quote]

It's called a conversation. This is what happens

[drTStingray]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1503818715' post='3360985']


It's called a conversation. This is what happens
[/quote]

Or a thread hijack - dependent on one's perspective 😏

The OP has said his query was answered in the first few replies. That tends to colour my view.

Edited August 27, 2017 by drTStingray

[ambient]

A couple of people have commented that they only play original music, so have no need to know how to read.

One of the people I'm currently teaching is a singer songwriter.

I've known him on and off for about 10 years or so. He contacted me at the beginning of the year. Knowing I was studying for my masters, he wanted to know if I knew of any, or could advertise at uni for music student string players who would play on an album he was working on, and also be filmed for a video. His budget was almost non/existent, which is why he wanted students .

We got talking and I asked if he'd got their parts written out and arranged etc. Turned out he thought they'd just play off his guitar chords. Then followed a lengthy conversation about yes, they undoubtedly could come up with parts, that's not how to do it. It ended up with me recording the string parts for him using Logic Pro, and him watching the process and offering advice so we got the parts exactly as he wanted them At the end I printed off the scores from Logic Pro, and have them to him.

I'm now teaching him theory and how to read and write music. He's realised after 20 years or so of totally eshewing any form of musical knowledge just how much he's missed out on. He's also pretty adamant that his whole songwriting has improved by using what he's learning. He wants to understand what the parts I presented to him mean, and how they work.

Edited August 27, 2017 by ambient

[dlloyd]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1503812504' post='3360962']
Thanks for the sentiment. I stand by my words though. You have reinforced my opinion.
[/quote]

I absolutely reject the notion that "intelligence" is an issue here. I, like millions of other people, could read music before I was ten... not because I'm clever, but because I went to music lessons. It's not difficult... it all comes down to wanting to do it and being willing to put in the practice.

If it's not relevant to you, then fine. But I would suggest to kids who have a dream of making a living as a professional musician that learning to read might be a good idea... it opens some doors in terms of paid gigs.

[The Jaywalker]

.

Edited November 28, 2017 by The Jaywalker