Is TAB really that evil?

[thepurpleblob]

On the flip-side of all this. When I started to play bass I had zero experience of playing *without* sheet music. It was a massive struggle to get my head around playing by ear.

All these things are skills worth having - reading notation, playing by ear, harmonic theory, playing a fretless, with a pick / without a pick.... and so on and so forth. However, I suspect most people here don't have the time to cover all this stuff so you have to pick your battles. But to be snobbish or anti-snobbish about certain things is to "cut of your nose to spite your face"!

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1503831070' post='3361075']
I absolutely reject the notion that "intelligence" is an issue here. I, like millions of other people, could read music before I was ten... not because I'm clever, but because I went to music lessons. It's not difficult... it all comes down to wanting to do it and being willing to put in the practice.

If it's not relevant to you, then fine. But I would suggest to kids who have a dream of making a living as a professional musician that learning to read might be a good idea... it opens some doors in terms of paid gigs.
[/quote]

Ah. You've taken my remark about intelligent people personally. That was not my intention but carry on.

I have already mentioned above that I had music lessons in Primary School where we'd just started using the stave. I don't really like to repeat stuff but in this instance... I was taken out of that environment and put into one where music was more prevalent than before but where lessons in reading and writing came later in the school curriculum.

You could say that I've seen both sides of the same coin. I have made a choice to not waste my time with score because music is more accessible to me without. What's hard to understand?

Edit: I didn't say that intelligence was an issue BTW. My comment was about small minded thinking on the part of folk what have big brains.

Edited August 28, 2017 by SpondonBassed

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='The Jaywalker' timestamp='1503831590' post='3361082']
Yeah, cellist pal of mine has often walked into a pop session with a string section where the band have played them the track and and asked if they wanted to record straight away or have a few run-throughs. Band always very confused to be asked for the string parts...
My friend has a neat line in extending her fee by composing/arranging/writing the parts in the studio.
Ultimately, by not being clued up on this kind of thing, the bands end up paying more than expected for the string section and for extra studio time.
[/quote]

No doubt they make beautiful music together anyway.

[thepurpleblob]

Thinking about this some more in the shower this morning (could be worse!)... it occurred to me that I think about rhythm in terms of notation. When there's something tricky that I'm not quite getting I often resort to writing it down. My fellow band musicians are a lot more experienced than me but I get those bits down more readily. It's not a big deal but it's a skill I'm glad I have; even though, in a covers band, it's not directly applicable.

[The Jaywalker]

.

Edited November 28, 2017 by The Jaywalker

[Nicko]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1503821906' post='3361001']
Or a thread hijack - dependent on one's perspective ��

The OP has said his query was answered in the first few replies. That tends to colour my view.
[/quote]

Well, as the OP I quite enjoy lighting the blue touchpaper and lobbing the metaphorical firework into a forum. Don't stop on my account

I definitely haven't said the questions been answered either. I think it has simply polarised opinion.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Nicko

[peteb]

[quote name='Nicko' timestamp='1504013403' post='3362110']


Well, as the OP I quite enjoy lighting the blue touchpaper and lobbing the metaphorical firework into a forum. Don't stop on my account

I definitely haven't said the questions been answered either. I think it has simply polarised opinion.
[/quote]
My answer to your original question is that Tab is a useful tool for learning songs you have heard before quickly but if you rely on it too much you may slow down your musical development and it is not used in any professional situation...

[wulf]

Having just skimmed through this discussion, I have spotted a couple of things that haven't yet been done to death.

1. Even outside of the combined tab / notation sheet that Dad3353 posted, you can indicate rhythm. The method I recall is to rely partly on spacing and also to add another line under the main tab part, with indicators like q and e (quarter and eighth notes - crotchets and quavers tend not to get a look in). I know tab predates the internet but this was brilliant in the early days of the internet, when text was about all you had, and still has the value today that you don't need any fancy software to knock up a quick chart.

2. The other thing you get with tab is an indication of where to place your fingers. There are also ways of doing this in standard notation but tab does this quite effectively. One of the books I'm working with at the moment is Jon Liebman's [url="https://www.amazon.co.uk/Play-Like-Jaco-Pastorius-Ultimate/dp/1480392456"]Play Like Jaco Pastorius[/url]. Liebman transcribes several full bass parts, providing notation AND tab, and the latter is very useful to indicate the nuances of where to finger the notes (and thus where large jumps are needed).

The biggest problem with relying on tab is that the barrier to publishing it is very low - it is often free and you often get what you pay for! I haven't done many covers gigs recently but did one last November. Getting ready, I tried to shortcut the learning by ear process by seeing what I could find online. Dots tended to come with price tags. Tabs were variable in quality and I also found that different online sources often ended up with the same tabs - there is a lot of copying and pasting going on but not so much careful review. Perhaps most useful were video-based instructionals although, even there, quality varied widely.

Wulf

[mikel]

Use what you find the easiest for what you require. I have never wanted to copy note for note anyway. If tab gives me the basics of a cover thats all I need to add or take away what I want. Music is about interptetation for me. Dont let anyone tell you how to play rock and roll.

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='wulf' timestamp='1504023058' post='3362174']
2. The other thing you get with tab is an indication of where to place your fingers. There are also ways of doing this in standard notation but tab does this quite effectively. One of the books I'm working with at the moment is Jon Liebman's [url="https://www.amazon.co.uk/Play-Like-Jaco-Pastorius-Ultimate/dp/1480392456"]Play Like Jaco Pastorius[/url]. Liebman transcribes several full bass parts, providing notation AND tab, and the latter is very useful to indicate the nuances of where to finger the notes (and thus where large jumps are needed).
[/quote]

I found that quite useful with Liebman's Bass Aerobics book. It was what got me away from looking at my fretboard constantly.

You raise a good couple of points. In addition to the note values shown by letters above the numbers in ASCII tabs you sometimes find note length is indicated by the length of the tails at each number. If I'm honest I prefer tabs written with rest strokes and tails like in full notation so I'm using a bit of both, the difference being that the stave becomes a literal representation of my five strings with fret numbers. Straight away I have no need to know key signatures or watch for incidental sharps or flats. The fact that there are no dots is of great help too, seeing badly like I do these days.

I can just get on and play. Lovely.

[aidanthorne89]

I find TAB far harder to read than standard notation. I guess this is because I trained classically so never had TAB.

[dmccombe7]

I'll use anything i can to get the best result. Usually a combination of listening to song with either TAB or standard notation. Just whatever i can find on a google search. Many of the songs i play i haven't been able to find in standard notation and TAB is only other option.
I like to get a feel for the song before i look at the TAB or music. Basically playing along with the song even just ad-lib to it. Once i have that basic feel for it and a reasonable knowledge of the structure i'll look at TAB or music to see if i'm missing something.
Usually i get it right myself unless its a complicated little section or there's a lot happenning in the song and the bass is difficult to pick out.

Don't think there's any right or wrong way to learn a song. Whatever is easiest or suited to the individual.

Dave

[mikel]

There is no evil way to learn a song. Tab simply means that if you dont wish to learn to read music you can still see the notes played in a song, then decide how you wish to play them.

[Bilbo]

'Learning the song' is one of the issues, surely. If you read dots and are playing for an MD who writes great charts, you don't need to 'learn the song'. If I do a show, I will often get just one band call/rehearsal before Showtime. No time to'learn the songs'.

[lojo]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1504333884' post='3364122']
'Learning the song' is one of the issues, surely. If you read dots and are playing for an MD who writes great charts, you don't need to 'learn the song'. If I do a show, I will often get just one band call/rehearsal before Showtime. No time to'learn the songs'.
[/quote]

I guess there are many levels to reading , and sight reading with no previous knowledge of the feel of the song is another level to using dots and tabs to work something out ahead of time.

I played in a band once where I was the only person who could not sight read so I had to know my stuff upfront , this made me slightly insecure but the keyboard player joked that if the music fell off the stands I'd be the only one to carry on playing

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1504333884' post='3364122']
'Learning the song' is one of the issues, surely. If you read dots and are playing for an MD who writes great charts, you don't need to 'learn the song'. If I do a show, I will often get just one band call/rehearsal before Showtime. No time to'learn the songs'.
[/quote]

That's a good point too. I am constantly aiming to increase my repertoire. There will never be a situation where I am physically capable of sight reading let alone wanting to.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1504334972' post='3364124']


I guess there are many levels to reading , and sight reading with no previous knowledge of the feel of the song is another level to using dots and tabs to work something out ahead of time.
[/quote]

It is not unusual for tunes you have never heard before being put in front of you. The reality is that there is always someone there who DOES know how it is supposed to feel so it is a quick briefing and off. Eg 'two feel ', 'shuffle' etc. Usually sorts itself out by the second or third bar.

[mikel]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1504333884' post='3364122']
'Learning the song' is one of the issues, surely. If you read dots and are playing for an MD who writes great charts, you don't need to 'learn the song'. If I do a show, I will often get just one band call/rehearsal before Showtime. No time to'learn the songs'.
[/quote]

No one is disputing the fact that in certain situations the ability to read music is crucial. The OP asked "Is tab really that evil". Unless you have your head wired in a strange way it obviously is not. Lots of people who don't wish to, or simply cant read music, like me, find it useful for certain applications.

[Bilbo]

Fairy Nuff.

[SpondonBassed]

Don't forget that you need reliable eyesight for the stave too. Reading at 140 BPM? I'd struggle at 60!

[Phil Starr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeIxJzdPD0A

[fretmeister]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1504640673' post='3366330']
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeIxJzdPD0A
[/quote]

Damn! Beaten to it!

[paul_c2]

I struggle with tab, but can read music perfectly adequately. To those who say that tab shows you where to put your fingers.....so does standard notation! If you use tab then you're 100% relying on the writer of the tab to have determined the correct position to play in (if you're not, then you're effectively transposing their numbers by adding or subtracting 5.....). And, you can have the equivalent of it on standard notation anyway, simply by making a written note of the position; or the string a note is played on.

Regarding rhythm, 99% of the tab I've seen is devoid of rhythm and the other 1% relies on lettering/numbers like q Q e a 2 etc - which again, is much slower (for me) to read than the rather elegant and logical way rhythm can be expressed in standard notation.

I guess its one of those things "you get good at what you practice". If you are accustomed to reading standard notation then after having done so for 10000 hours, the 10001st hour of reading music isn't difficult. I guess if I needed to, I could force myself to become better at reading tab (and hunting around for the song in audio form, repeatedly listening to it, annotating the rhythm for it, then printing out the tab and doing a bunch of corrections and changes for wrong notes and different positions I prefer etc etc) but I think there's real limits on how quickly it can be interpreted - just as semiquavers in real music in tempos over (say) 100bpm are a struggle to interpret 1st time reading it.

[lojo]

Tab id guess is mainly used by people who can't read , it's a diy tool that can be effective if you've got a good ear and need a bit of direction to speed things up rather than a complete solution with no work on your part.

It helps me out from time to time for sure , but it's rarely completely correct.

I don't think there is any doubt that notation is a more professional system , and Everyone would benefit by understanding it , but it's something I've never learned and can't justify the time on now , but it's never stopped me playing in any band I wanted to at my weekend functions covers level. If I had my time again though I'd learn it from day 1 along with playing

[xgsjx]

I can read both, I prefer score for the more accurate timing & notation, but I like tab for it's simpleness. Many of the books I have show score and tablature together, which makes things very easy & good for getting the right fingers on the right strings (I know, score has timrp, but that doesn't say which string).

However, most internet tab... It is evil & often as accurate as a drunk trying to not pee on his leg.

I don't use either score nor tab that often anymore. My band is an originals band & any songs we do cover are not carbon versions & the other band is the church band, I get emailed a bunch of songs via youtube links, some chord charts & that's me. Often I get the email on Friday or Saturday for playing on Sunday & I get to listen to each song once or twice. This is one place that score would be nice, especially as mid sermon the MD sends a message to the band saying "We'll end with xxxxxx" & it's usually a song that I've never heard before.
Saying that, I've not struggled at all with it.