Is TAB really that evil?

[Dood]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1504705873' post='3366757']
Aimed at nobody in particular, but perhaps a musical interlude might be in order:

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEhS9Y9HYjU"][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEhS9Y9HYjU[/media][/url]
[/quote]

OMGZ!!! I luv dat one, you got tab for it???*


as they say on 'da interwebz'.. lol

[BigRedX]

There appears to be an underlying assumption in this thread that if you have standard notation for a piece it will be correct.

I'm sure that anyone who bought sheet music for tunes from the hit parade as performed by popular beat combos from the 60s and 70s will attest this is hardly the case. While the notes (and guitar chords) might have been a legitimate musical accompaniment to the vocal melody most of the time, they bore little resemblance to what was actually played on the recording. The main score was generally an approximation of the original, badly arranged for bar-room piano. Most of the guitar chords were unplayable unless you had extra fingers and many of the songs appeared to be unnecessarily difficult to play keys.

If you were lucky a more knowledgeable friend would have explained that the originals had been recorded with the guitars tuned down a semitone, or that the final mix had been speeded up at the mastering stage to make it sound more exciting, which would go a little way towards explaining some of what you found in the notation, but a lot of the time it was simply down to laziness and incompetence on the part of those doing the transcriptions, much like a lot of the tab you find on the internet today.

The big difference was that you had to pay in order to get these travesties. Sheet music for single song cost upwards of £1.00 at a time when the same money would have bought a round for your band in the pub and still have change left over.

As a naive teenager I had hoped that these sheets would help unlock the mysteries of the music I loved so much, but in the end it was hours spent listening to the record(s) over and over again (or if I was lucky 10 minutes with a friend who'd already done that) that allowed me to work out what was being played on some of my favourite recordings.

[Coilte]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1504707887' post='3366782']
I prefer a pint if you're buying Dad.
[/quote]

I assume you are both heading here.

http://www.tabsbarandgrill.com

[SpondonBassed]

Thanks for backing up my assertion BigRedX. Notation is as good as the knowledge and skill of the writer. It's just the same in ANY language.

@ Coilte, that's a good suggestion thanks. My only worry is that I might [s]inflict[/s] display my karaoke skills.

This thread has challenged me. I have a personality fault in that I am not good with authority figures. All my life it has been impossible for me to accept authority without question. Many people have this to some degree but I have it to the extent that it sometimes handicaps me. I cope with it on an everyday basis and occasionally it works very well for me. Most of the time however, I have to avoid situations where I feel trapped by authoritative figures otherwise I get into difficulty.

I'd say that notation is an area of music where this manifests itself severely. Incidents at primary school are strong in my memory with one particular teacher. She had a very poor manner. I now believe that she disliked children. She was in charge of the school's theatrical productions. I refused to take part any more after a dress rehearsal for a school play that ended up with my public embarrassment before the whole school. I want to forget that incident but can not. Every so often something will happen to trigger the memory of that incident and I immediately become anxious. It's a shame because the music teacher was fine. I'd started to read and write notation in that class and was offered violin lessons.

We moved out of the area before that could happen however and that was the last time that notation came up in school until secondary. My first years of secondary school were spent in boarding. That lasted two years before I walked away from it permanently. I went to the technical school instead after telling Dad he was wasting money sending me to expensive schools because I was already aiming for an apprenticeship in engineering. Fortunately he and Mum supported my decision and I got some really good offers from employers when I left the technical school three years later.

Much as I'd like to become fluent in notation, it would serve little purpose. My eyesight prevents me from seeing clearly sometimes. Tab is slightly more easy to read and with its clear instruction, I can be up and running with a new tune in minutes rather than hours. If you've spent your early years learning notation you may well think it feels natural. To me it is unnecessarily complex to look at unless I am sat studying it for fine detail.

The symbols for key signatures and incidental sharps or flats are particularly annoying. Sometimes I can't tell whether I am looking at a solid dot or the outline of one. I have vari-focal spectacles that are made for distance and laptop reading. That means they don't focus on the printed word very well. If I had money, I'd have another set made but I am on a tiny income and I don't claim benefits.

The challenge for me in this discussion is to not loose my temper with some of the more authoritative comments that are made. There are members here who teach. If I respond badly to any of you, this explanation might help to understand that it is not a personal issue with anything you have said. It is more likely to be my own personal issue from the experience I had with one bad teacher in my formative years. You can't do anything about it so sorry if I come over as being abrasive sometimes.

If I had it all to do again I would have tried to pick up on notation with my second primary school or even my third. Hindsight is a bugger. Thankfully TAB exists in many forms. The Internet exists to allow TAB sharing. Without TAB I would not have been able to pick up bass in my fifties again. Maybe this is why TAB could be considered evil... it allows people like me to join in?

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1504708006' post='3366783']
OMGZ!!! I luv dat one, you got tab for it???*


as they say on 'da interwebz'.. lol
[/quote]

[Dood]

One thing that really hasn't been touched on here at all is that there is such a learning difficulty known as [b]Notation Dyslexia[/b]. Much like Dyslexia which is more understood in reading and writing it manifests itself in the same ways. As an example, even with proper reading glasses (if needed) "symbols seem to move on the lines" to quote one of my students. This is even more of a problem when looking at notation where lots of information is crammed on to one page. Even for some there's an extended moment of trying to decipher the key of B major from E major - long before starting the piece.

For this reason and many of the advantages noted above I teach [i]combined[/i] Notation and Tablature. (As well as individually). I actually teach methods to help speed up Tablature reading. As an example and certainly not a description of my entire approach, I demonstrate how to improve by correcting the mistakes (covering music theory) and then making it more efficient to play (physical understanding of the instrument). Since Tablature tends not to have a set standard, other than borrowing symbols from 'standard notation', it makes it easy to manipulate, much like the way that many write crib sheets in the absence of sight reading. This has worked particularly well; some of my students have gone from the class room to gigs over in Europe.

Finally, when it comes to teaching, my approach is entirely different from many, some of which I have shadowed and cringed as students have become embarrassed and tangled. I guess what I want to add here is that I guess there are more ways than one to crack that initial egg and they should all be explored and we should always keep learning. Even for those who think they know it all and are somehow better than others. Stay humble, stay positive.

[Nicko]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1504707644' post='3366781']
I know the note and it's relationship to the other notes and within the piece I'm playing. I'm not thinking patterns. I play a lot of chordal stuff, whether played as a straight chord or more horizontally, a good knowledge is prerequisite I think.

98% of what I do doesn't require sight-reading, I'm improvising solo, which again I think does require a thorough knowledge.

I'm certainly not locked into a way of thinking, my knowledge frees my thinking.
[/quote]

Yes, I get all that. But knowledge of the notes, intervals and theory is all independent of the ability to read notation which was at least the original question. In some ways learning theory using tab is more difficult (eg for C minor the standard notation will tell you which notes are flat, tab wont). You have to work backwards or remember the intervals.

[ambient]

[quote name='Nicko' timestamp='1504786487' post='3367288']
Yes, I get all that. But knowledge of the notes, intervals and theory is all independent of the ability to read notation which was at least the original question. In some ways learning theory using tab is more difficult (eg for C minor the standard notation will tell you which notes are flat, tab wont). You have to work backwards or remember the intervals.
[/quote]

I think I learned both at the same time.

[paul_c2]

[quote name='Nicko' timestamp='1504786487' post='3367288']
knowledge of the notes, intervals and theory is all independent of the ability to read notation which was at least the original question.
[/quote]

Its not independent, but then it can also be related to tab (which is a representation of shape/position on the fretboard). For some people after, but most people during, I'd say notes, intervals, patterns, shapes on the fretboard, chords etc all interlink in a fairly logical way and can't really be isolated as independent aspects. I'd agree that tab (at least on bass, which is tuned in fourths) has a more direct relationship eg 1 string up and 2 frets back is always going to be a minor third; but those things are also fairly logical when presented as standard notation - with the caveat that funny intervals such as the augmented 2nd (for example C to D#) are enharmonic equivalent to a minor third, etc. But there would be accidentals to alert you to this occurrence.

[Grangur]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X7qgBVnMfY

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1504775703' post='3367184']
One thing that really hasn't been touched on here at all is that there is such a learning difficulty known as [b]Notation Dyslexia[/b]. Much like Dyslexia which is more understood in reading and writing it manifests itself in the same ways. As an example, even with proper reading glasses (if needed) "symbols seem to move on the lines" to quote one of my students. This is even more of a problem when looking at notation where lots of information is crammed on to one page. Even for some there's an extended moment of trying to decipher the key of B major from E major - long before starting the piece.

For this reason and many of the advantages noted above I teach [i]combined[/i] Notation and Tablature. (As well as individually). I actually teach methods to help speed up Tablature reading. As an example and certainly not a description of my entire approach, I demonstrate how to improve by correcting the mistakes (covering music theory) and then making it more efficient to play (physical understanding of the instrument). Since Tablature tends not to have a set standard, other than borrowing symbols from 'standard notation', it makes it easy to manipulate, much like the way that many write crib sheets in the absence of sight reading. This has worked particularly well; some of my students have gone from the class room to gigs over in Europe.

Finally, when it comes to teaching, my approach is entirely different from many, some of which I have shadowed and cringed as students have become embarrassed and tangled. I guess what I want to add here is that I guess there are more ways than one to crack that initial egg and they should all be explored and we should always keep learning. Even for those who think they know it all and are somehow better than others. Stay humble, stay positive.
[/quote]

That's the most interesting thing I have read in this topic.

You wont thank me for saying that my first response to "Notation Dyslexia" was to type LOBBOX! but as I read on I realised that you seem to have a better appreciation of the very nub of this topic than any other member who has contributed.

Respect.

There are only a few teachers who I genuinely respect and today I added your name to the list.

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='Nicko' timestamp='1504786487' post='3367288']
Yes, I get all that. But knowledge of the notes, intervals and theory is all independent of the ability to read notation which was at least the original question. In some ways learning theory using tab is more difficult (eg for C minor the standard notation will tell you which notes are flat, tab wont). You have to work backwards or remember the intervals.
[/quote]

I think in semi-tones mostly. I can't really think of a time when I needed to know where the sharps and flats are in a piece. Other than knowing sharp is a semi-tone up and flat is a semi-tone down I've never needed to know. I practice chromatic, major and minor scales sometimes. That's it. Like the post above, I remember dynamic shapes that sound good. If it sounds bad either the shape I tip-toe out on the fretboard is wrong or my timing is off somewhere.

[Nicko]

[quote name='paul_c2' timestamp='1504789103' post='3367321']
Its not independent, but then it can also be related to tab (which is a representation of shape/position on the fretboard). For some people after, but most people during, I'd say notes, intervals, patterns, shapes on the fretboard, chords etc all interlink in a fairly logical way and can't really be isolated as independent aspects. I'd agree that tab (at least on bass, which is tuned in fourths) has a more direct relationship eg 1 string up and 2 frets back is always going to be a minor third; but those things are also fairly logical when presented as standard notation - with the caveat that funny intervals such as the augmented 2nd (for example C to D#) are enharmonic equivalent to a minor third, etc. But there would be accidentals to alert you to this occurrence.
[/quote]

To be honest this is like saying knowledge of maths is dependent on the ability to write arabic numerals. Its not and never has been.

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1504792908' post='3367358']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X7qgBVnMfY[/media]
[/quote]

I will pass on that thanks Grangur. It's pointless since I will not learn notation. Why would I want wind myself up watching a YT vid?

[Dood]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1504794268' post='3367370']
That's the most interesting thing I have read in this topic.

You wont thank me for saying that my first response to "Notation Dyslexia" was to type LOBBOX! but as I read on I realised that you seem to have a better appreciation of the very nub of this topic than any other member who has contributed.

Respect.

There are only a few teachers who I genuinely respect and today I added your name to the list.
[/quote]

I'd have laughed out loud to lobbox (Not so much that auto-correct has changed my typing three times).

Thank you, for your reply though. I'm genuinely touched. I guess I just seek in a way that I always want to know 'how things work'. Maybe that's why I love my job reviewing guitar gear as well.

Aside from the magazine, I've been very fortunate to work, in-depth, on some music based projects (some award winning) that I have delivered to those with a range of 'needs'. I've delivered music projects to those with Autism, or physical handicaps; I've presented clinics to staff members for using music as a communicative device and I've worked with sufferers of Dementia. We developed a program in conjunction with the education department of a very famous concert hall establishment. The latter not feeling like work, but a very emotional journey and understanding of the effects of a range of mental health diseases, which had a huge impact on me.

I suppose in short, I find myself questioning and analysing the way that I teach all the time - and of course with that, trying to understand how people learn. Maybe there's a Masters in that somewhere!

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1504796060' post='3367397']
...I've delivered music projects to those with Autism, or physical handicaps; I've presented clinics to staff members for using music as a communicative device and I've worked with sufferers of Dementia. We developed a program in conjunction with the education department of a very famous concert hall establishment. The latter not feeling like work, but a very emotional journey and understanding of the effects of a range of mental health diseases, which had a huge impact on me...
[/quote]

Very cool. The way music is tied to emotional response is why I've always needed it around me as a sort of regulator. Better than drugs.

[Grangur]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1504794753' post='3367376']
I think in semi-tones mostly. I can't really think of a time when I needed to know where the sharps and flats are in a piece. Other than knowing sharp is a semi-tone up and flat is a semi-tone down I've never needed to know. I practice chromatic, major and minor scales sometimes. That's it. Like the post above, I remember dynamic shapes that sound good. If it sounds bad either the shape I tip-toe out on the fretboard is wrong or my timing is off somewhere.
[/quote]

Isn't the answer to this whole discussion simply, It's horses for courses" ?

If what you do is play chord tones and, I guess, work with "shapes" in a covers band and it works that's cool.

Again I guess if you work in a cruise-ship jazz band with the play list changing every night, or as a session player, and need to communicate scores with a sax player, I would imagine that would bring a demand for different skills.

If what you do works for you, that's cool.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Grangur

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1504799450' post='3367437']
Isn't the answer to this whole discussion simply, It's horses for courses" ?

If what you do is play chord tones and, I guess, work with "shapes" in a covers band and it works that's cool.

Again I guess if you work in a cruise-ship jazz band with the play list changing every night, or as a session player, and need to communicate scores with a sax player, I would imagine that would bring a demand for different skills.

If what you do works for you, that's cool.
[/quote]

Very gracious of you.

Heeheehee

[mikel]

I believe the horses for courses statement has been mad about a dozen times so far. I was bloody amazed when I saw this tosh back at the top of the pile.

[paul_c2]

[quote name='Nicko' timestamp='1504794885' post='3367379']
To be honest this is like saying knowledge of maths is dependent on the ability to write arabic numerals. Its not and never has been.
[/quote]

Perhaps a better word would have been "interlinked" rather than "not independent". I agree that knowledge of intervals is not dependent on knowing standard notation - but that at some stage in learning, you can link up aspects such as intervals, notation, chords, scales etc in a logical manner and so long as you have solidly gained the knowledge, nothing contradicts anything else and in fact helps make it quicker/easier.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1504792908' post='3367358']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X7qgBVnMfY[/media]
[/quote]

Interesting, but IMO not really accurate or relevant.

You simply can't make the connection between reading words in sentences and paragraphs and the ability to be able to read notation more easily than tablature. As someone who is marginally dyslexic, I have trained myself to be able to read properly formatted text by being able to recognise word shapes. However I can't see the similarity because despite the fact that you could in theory put any combination of letters together to form a word, all the common words use set letter patterns, and sentence structure means that the words themselves generally follow set patterns. I know this because if they didn't, then I wouldn't be able to read at all.

When it comes to music there are a lot less in the way of rules to help you work out what is happening. As a composer I can put any two or more notes together to form a chord, and I can follow any note with any other note of any length. True you can use the key and the time signature to help as a player to narrow down the choices, but only the simplest of music is going to constantly fit into the easy choices. You don't have to be playing prog rock or jazz to encounter accidentals, key or time signature changes in what on first listen sounds like a completely straight forward piece of music.

Music IME is a lot less predictable than literature.

Or maybe it is simply that I don't find either notation or tablature easy to read. Give me a piece in either format and eventually I'll be able to work out what I need to do in order to be able to play the piece, but for me music is simply to complex and unpredictable to be able to sight read. Tablature its not better or worse than notation.

[Grangur]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1504801528' post='3367457']
I believe the horses for courses statement has been mad about a dozen times so far. I was bloody amazed when I saw this tosh back at the top of the pile.
[/quote]

If TAB is better than notation then please do feel do explain this.
Also, why don't serious classical instrumentalists use it?

On the other hand don't. I can't be arsed to read crap.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1504803740' post='3367472']
Also, why don't serious classical instrumentalists use it?
[/quote]

Because there are very few fretted, stringed instruments in classical music.

[mikel]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1504803740' post='3367472']
If TAB is better than notation then please do feel do explain this.
Also, why don't serious classical instrumentalists use it?

On the other hand don't. I can't be arsed to read crap.
[/quote]

No one, at any point in this stupid thread has said Tab is better than any other way of learning or notating a song. Hence the "Horses for courses". Read the title of the thread.

[lojo]

Yep , I don't think anyone who can't read but uses Tab would think that it's better than reading music . However if you've not learned growing up then there is a decision to make if you need or want to put the time into developing the skill.