Dad3353 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503323250' post='3357209'] Why was it bought to the police's attention? Who complained? And Why? The article is very scant on details of the neighbours relationship leading up to the event. [/quote] Does it matter..? I'd have thought that enough has been written about Robertson's jam and Enid Blyton to have anyone realise the status of those dolls, but maybe I'm wrong, or too old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='fftc' timestamp='1503323532' post='3357214'] Of course they are. That's how google works. And the confederate flag has been a hot topic recently. That doesn't mean for one second that the flag has only represented racism, slavery, subjugation, segregation etc for the last couple of weeks. It has represented that since the civil war! [/quote] To some people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503324373' post='3357236'] To some people. [/quote] To the inventors of it. To those who displayed it while fighting for the right to keep slaves. To those who display it now, in 2017, while wearing White Power type t-shirts and carrying banners with similar slogans. By all means think of it as a cool bit of design (it is), but don't for a minute believe that it is anything other than a symbol of racism, and even if there are other meanings, the racist element overshadows every neutral or positive slant you might think (without you reading any actual books on the subject) you can apply to it. The fact that many British people, or even European people might not recognise it is as vile as other examples in history does not mean it isn't. It just means more education is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503325321' post='3357248'] The fact that many British people, or even European people might not recognise it is as vile as other examples in history does not mean it isn't. It just means more education is needed. [/quote] Well said. Tbh I can't really believe this needs discussing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowieBass Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 This happened recently: "Drinkers rip down a Confederate flag being used for a Cowboy-themed party inside a Chorlton pub" http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/drinkers-rip-down-confederate-flag-13499466 I say lose the flag, you've got the outfits and stage props to support the theme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 (edited) I'd say that in the context of 'rock', there's more a 'rebel' association; in the context of Americana, it's a great deal more blunt, veering towards red-neck thinking. As a 'rebel' flag, I see no problem; as a 'Southern States' statement I'd have more qualms. Edited August 21, 2017 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger2611 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 So, is The Dukes of Hazzard still a cool TV show? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 TBH, when I think of the Confederate flag in a U.K. context, it just reminds me of the terrible Country and Western dos at holiday camps I played at a few times in the past. It's tacky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Charlotteville, USA. Last week The news isn't limited to our own countries anymore. It's global. These are the images that are flying across the world - via news sources and social media. This is what the majority will see. It's a very easy question for anyone wanting to use that flag - do you want to be associated with these images? The association and the assumption of support will be made irrespective of intent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503325321' post='3357248'] To the inventors of it. To those who displayed it while fighting for the right to keep slaves. To those who display it now, in 2017, while wearing White Power type t-shirts and carrying banners with similar slogans. By all means think of it as a cool bit of design (it is), but don't for a minute believe that it is anything other than a symbol of racism, and even if there are other meanings, the racist element overshadows every neutral or positive slant you might think (without you reading any actual books on the subject) you can apply to it. The fact that many British people, or even European people might not recognise it is as vile as other examples in history does not mean it isn't. It just means more education is needed. [/quote] The point I'm making is that prior to 2015 and the last few days it doesn't seem to have been a issue whatsoever to fly it. In the few articles I've read on the last few hours it seems only to have been a real issue (for the majority of people) in the US since 2015. The fact people in the Uk now know about it, I would suggest, is because it's been seen on mainstream media at Charlottesville. And there was an article in the Sun newspaper three days ago. Certainly I'd say the reason I know nothing about it is because I've been totally ignoring most of that story (and don't read The Sun) I wonder how many people replying on this thread knew about the connotations previous to this week, or before 2015? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interpol52 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 (edited) [quote name='ambient' timestamp='1503314681' post='3357055'] Maybe just go for a regular Stars and Stripes flag? [/quote] My first thought too. Edited August 21, 2017 by interpol52 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='ambient' timestamp='1503325497' post='3357250'] Well said. Tbh I can't really believe this needs discussing. [/quote] Neither can I. I said right from the off that I didn't want to start a debate on the American thing I just wanted to know if I needed to be conscious of what a British pub audience might be thinking about the symbolism of the flag. I'm glad I didn't do something controversial like play a Stingray with a plec or buy one of those stupid reliced basses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1503327059' post='3357268'] TBH, when I think of the Confederate flag in a U.K. context, it just reminds me of the terrible Country and Western dos at holiday camps I played at a few times in the past. It's tacky. [/quote] Exactly, that's us, We're tacky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503327133' post='3357271'] The point I'm making is that prior to 2015 and the last few days it doesn't seem to have been a issue whatsoever to fly it. In the few articles I've read on the last few hours it seems only to have been a real issue (for the majority of people) in the US since 2015. The fact people in the Uk now know about it, I would suggest, is because it's been seen on mainstream media at Charlottesville. And there was an article in the Sun newspaper three days ago. Certainly I'd say the reason I know nothing about it is because I've been totally ignoring most of that story (and don't read The Sun) I wonder how many people replying on this thread knew about the connotations previous to this week, or before 2015? [/quote] You didn't. I did. Clearly from some of the other people who recommended books and the like, they did too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503327079' post='3357269'] The news isn't limited to our own countries anymore. It's global. These are the images that are flying across the world - via news sources and social media. This is what the majority will see. [url=https://postimages.org/][/url] It's a very easy question for anyone wanting to use that flag - do you want to be associated with these images? The association and the assumption of support will be made irrespective of intent. [/quote] So it's a flag that represents a smaller area of a now United region of the world with a bloody history amongst it's neighbours going back centuries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trueno Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503327133' post='3357271'] The point I'm making is that prior to 2015 and the last few days it doesn't seem to have been a issue whatsoever to fly it. In the few articles I've read on the last few hours it seems only to have been a real issue (for the majority of people) in the US since 2015. The fact people in the Uk now know about it, I would suggest, is because it's been seen on mainstream media at Charlottesville. And there was an article in the Sun newspaper three days ago. Certainly I'd say the reason I know nothing about it is because I've been totally ignoring most of that story (and don't read The Sun) I wonder how many people replying on this thread knew about the connotations previous to this week, or before 2015? [/quote] I did. When I went on my US road trip in 1991, I bought a confederate flag in Nashville, thinking it would look really cool as a backdrop. I stopped at my brother's house in Indiana... he just said: keep it under wraps, it may not go down too well if anyone sees it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Just out of curiosity I asked a mate who is involved in the bluegrass scene in the UK He tells me that the confederate flag was quite common, but over the last few years there has been less use, and some have reported audience numbers dropping if it is being used. He happens to be Jewish, and these days takes it as an indication that he won't go as see any act using that flag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503327133' post='3357271'] I wonder how many people replying on this thread knew about the connotations previous to this week, or before 2015? [/quote] Erm... I don't think we're all that thick Tim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503327550' post='3357278'] You didn't. I did. Clearly from some of the other people who recommended books and the like, they did too. [/quote] Yes. And Sun readers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1503327773' post='3357280'] So it's a flag that represents a smaller area of a now United region of the world with a bloody history amongst it's neighbours going back centuries? [/quote] Somewhat false equivalence there. I don't recall that flag being used a banner to preserve the ability to own another human being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bay Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503327133' post='3357271'] The point I'm making is that prior to 2015 and the last few days it doesn't seem to have been a issue whatsoever to fly it. In the few articles I've read on the last few hours it seems only to have been a real issue (for the majority of people) in the US since 2015. The fact people in the Uk now know about it, I would suggest, is because it's been seen on mainstream media at Charlottesville. And there was an article in the Sun newspaper three days ago. Certainly I'd say the reason I know nothing about it is because I've been totally ignoring most of that story (and don't read The Sun) I wonder how many people replying on this thread knew about the connotations previous to this week, or before 2015? [/quote] It WAS an issue, it's just you didn't hear about because the people campaigning and protesting were poor black Americans who were very easily ignored by the media. It has never gone away, it has never ceased to be an issue, the racist killings have never ceased, its onlynthe media coverage that comes and goes. For many in the US it's an all day everyday issue. My brother lives in the states, we toured around a few years ago. One incident stands out in particular, we got lost and asked a black kid of about twelve for directions. My brother has been there so long he has a Boston accent. The poor kid absolutely froze and stood there sh*t scared. We spoke about this later to the family we were staying with and it turned out that it was because he had been approached by white people in a posh car - in his world he knew that if he said the wrong thing to the wrong person he could be beaten or worse. It was a small place we had been through so we went back and spoke to locals in the shop. As soon as they knew we were English the fear dissolved (why do white people come around asking questions?) and we got the most amazing welcome I have ever had from strangers. They knew the lad and we left a few dollars for him with an apology. A few weeks after we got back we got a letter from the family to say thank you (the shop owner insisted on an address so he could make sure we got to know the money had made it to the right place) and an apology for the child's 'rudeness'. I don't think I have ever felt so humble in my life. Sadly there was no address on the letter or we would have kept in touch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503327939' post='3357285'] Yes. And Sun readers. [/quote] I'm confused. Are you slagging off Sun readers while at the same time saying they know more about history than you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_P Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I'd lose it. Recent events have brought the connotations and history of that flag more obvious so if you haven't been aware of the issue you are now and so will be more people in the audience. You mentioned that no one had made any negative comments in the past - it's very possible that you mean they haven't said anything you are aware of - there could very easily have been people who think less of the band for it but just don't attend shows and don't comment. It's quite possible that any bookings you didn't get are linked to it but they gave different reasons rather than get into a debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503327830' post='3357282'] Just out of curiosity I asked a mate who is involved in the bluegrass scene in the UK He tells me that the confederate flag was quite common, but over the last few years there has been less use, and some have reported audience numbers dropping if it is being used. He happens to be Jewish, and these days takes it as an indication that he won't go as see any act using that flag. [/quote] Than you, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm trying to find out. Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojo Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503316666' post='3357083'] It's not a modern purpose - it's the original purpose, after it has been sanitised by recent pop culture. [/quote] Yes , but my point was it was accepted as a rock culture thing and evolved slightly into a more passive thing in certain sub cultures , recent modern events have taken that away and make the dukes of hazard rasict The Union Jack is hard to interpret , if you see one hanging out a window , do you think EDL or royalist who is proud of multicultural inclusive society Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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