T-Bay Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1503386163' post='3357679'] I don`t know the history of the confederate flag, but if it was around before the KKK etc decided to wave it, then keep using it. A bit like the Union Flag, or Cross of St George, right-wingers wave it, but then why wouldn`t they wave the flag of the country they claim to support? Anyone else wishing to use those flags can get deemed to be racist when their intentions may be patriotism, which is different. [/quote] Perhaps read the whole thread, it explains it origins and meanings on several occasions, or just google it. The people who designed it were as bad if not worse than the kkk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Regarding the statue of General Lee, I'm against destroying historical monuments what ever they are. It's what Henry VIII and ISIL are doing. It's what they did to Sadam Hussain's statue and it was an indication of the worse things to come. Maybe an amended plaque be put up on the statue with a fuller explanation. Although I'm aware that the truth doesn't figure highly in the US at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503352659' post='3357593'] Maybe you can explain then, why aren't there people being locked up at the many American car shows that are regularly held. The cars are driven there with their flags and everything, they must be going on the public roads and passing police cars. I don't get it. [/quote] Selective memory again Tim? My earlier post on possible arrest was based on there being nooses as well. Noose + Flag = obvious racism. Flag alone may not be (as per the Acts referred to above). But a Golliwog = racism. The subtleties are important and obvious. And irrespective of your views on it - the bit I pasted was from the Crown Prosecution Service guide. I don't know why you are asking me why an individual policeman or 2 hadn't arrested someone for showing that flag. Perhaps it was because there were no nooses. Perhaps it was because they had something better to do. Perhaps there was no complaint from a member of the public? Perhaps they were Sun readers and didn't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503389702' post='3357713'] Regarding the statue of General Lee, I'm against destroying historical monuments what ever they are. It's what Henry VIII and ISIL are doing. It's what they did to Sadam Hussain's statue and it was an indication of the worse things to come. Maybe an amended plaque be put up on the statue with a fuller explanation. Although I'm aware that the truth doesn't figure highly in the US at the moment. [/quote] So you'd be ok if Hitler statues had been left up? Or Pol Pot? Or Idi Amin? Unless you can see into the future you cannot claim that removing a statue of a murderer is an indication of "worse things to come" - that is hindsight based reductive nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503385766' post='3357675'] Apparently nobody needs to actually take offence. It only has to be likely that someone would take offence if they heard it. [/quote] Not really. The intent of the person doing the act is important too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Browning Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 (edited) [quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503389980' post='3357717'] So you'd be ok if Hitler statues had been left up? Or Pol Pot? Or Idi Amin? Unless you can see into the future you cannot claim that removing a statue of a murderer is an indication of "worse things to come" - that is hindsight based reductive nonsense. [/quote] I hear what is being said (and don't disagree) but do wonder at which point the line is drawn. We have statues of royalty and other figures (Thomas More, for example) who were responsible for acts of despicable cruelty, and we appear to venerate these people. Not advancing any theory and certainly not trying to be any kind of troll but there's a hypocrisy on some level. I also wonder what the Georgia Satellites would be doing about it, if they were still going. Edited August 22, 2017 by Steve Browning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503389702' post='3357713'] Regarding the statue of General Lee, I'm against destroying historical monuments what ever they are. [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503389980' post='3357717'] So you'd be ok if Hitler statues had been left up? Or Pol Pot? Or Idi Amin? Unless you can see into the future you cannot claim that removing a statue of a murderer is an indication of "worse things to come" - that is hindsight based reductive nonsense. [/quote] Yes. I would. Smashing things up are what mobs do. It is an indication of how tribal people become in a group. It's not a civilised way to behave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 (edited) [quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1503390457' post='3357729'] [/quote] I know art is subjective but that's just gruesome and should never have been erected in the first place irrespective of the good or bad deeds he did. Edited August 22, 2017 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Erecting statues is just as much a 'tribal' thing to do, and no more 'civilised'. Times change, those worshipped sometimes (often..?) turn out to have feet of clay. Some civilisations don't hold with effigies of any kind; maybe that would solve the matter..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503390092' post='3357719'] Not really. The intent of the person doing the act is important too. [/quote] The OP flying the confederate flag is not as bad as it is being suggested then. As there's no intent at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503390620' post='3357736'] I know art is subjective but that's just gruesome and should never have been erected in the first place irrespective of the good or bad deeds he did. [/quote] To be fair, I think that's an artistic impression... that one was never erected. This one was... used to overlook a children's swimming pool in Glasgow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503390820' post='3357738'] The OP flying the confederate flag is not as bad as it is being suggested then. As there's no intent at all? [/quote] Indeed, and no arrests made. Still, some folks could take offence, or simply disapprove and shun the show. That seems to have been the original issue, not the legality of displaying these flags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trueno Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='Steve Browning' timestamp='1503390395' post='3357727'] I hear what is being said (and don't disagree) but do wonder at which point the line is drawn. We have statues of royalty and other figures (Thomas More, for example) who were responsible for acts of despicable cruelty, and we appear to venerate these people. [/quote] Please enlighten me as to what act of despicable cruelty Thomas More was responsible for... apart from the fact I had to read "Utopia" at university? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503390820' post='3357738'] The OP flying the confederate flag is not as bad as it is being suggested then. As there's no intent at all? [/quote] The OP has not been accused of having intent. The entire post has been about the impact on his audience. The legalities come into it partly as a matter of hassle - the standard of suspicion the police require for an arrest is far lower than the standard the CPS must reach to secure a conviction. But, as stated many times in this thread - mud sticks, and mud ruins reputation. An arrest would do that even without a conviction. And as I've stated - the flag alone is unlikely to cause a prosecution. But the nooses could. Even a failed prosecution would damage reputation. People found not guilty of sexual offences are viewed with suspicion for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503390539' post='3357734'] Yes. I would. Smashing things up are what mobs do. It is an indication of how tribal people become in a group. It's not a civilised way to behave. [/quote] Leaving a statue up of one of those people is as bad as not cleaning up racist graffiti. Leaving it there may not be an indication of approval, but it is also not an example of condemnation of unacceptable conduct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Browning Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='Trueno' timestamp='1503391586' post='3357748'] Please enlighten me as to what act of despicable cruelty Thomas More was responsible for... apart from the fact I had to read "Utopia" at university? [/quote] Burning people alive tends to be frowned upon these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bay Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='Trueno' timestamp='1503391586' post='3357748'] Please enlighten me as to what act of despicable cruelty Thomas More was responsible for... apart from the fact I had to read "Utopia" at university? [/quote] I believe he was responsible for the torture and death of protestants, he was a fervent Catholic and was particularly active in the respression of Protestant literature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trueno Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='Steve Browning' timestamp='1503392350' post='3357763'] Burning people alive tends to be frowned upon these days. [/quote] Source, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trueno Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='T-Bay' timestamp='1503392431' post='3357765'] I believe he was responsible for the torture and death of protestants, he was a fervent Catholic and was particularly active in the respression of Protestant literature. [/quote] Source, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Browning Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Apologies for slightly hijacking there. FWIW I think you have made the right decision and there are other options available to decorate your stage. I have to say, Blue's contribution was quite an armoring read in that it shows the depth of the fragmentation on either side (and its extent). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Browning Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='Trueno' timestamp='1503392461' post='3357766'] Source, please. [/quote] One that satisfies me, thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bay Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='Trueno' timestamp='1503392502' post='3357768'] Source, please. [/quote] Google 'history of Thomas Moore', sure that will bring it up. My source was Mr Jones the history teacher at Spondon school, but as he will now be in his 80s I doubt he would welcome people knocking on his door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='Trueno' timestamp='1503392502' post='3357768'] Source, please. [/quote] http://www.historytoday.com/john-guy/sir-thomas-more-and-heretics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 [quote name='Trueno' timestamp='1503392461' post='3357766'] Source, please. [/quote] "[color=#081721][font=georgia, tahoma, arial][size=1] As Lord Chancellor, he had imprisoned and interrogated Lutherans, sometimes in his own house, and sent six reformers to be burned at the stake, "[/size][/font][/color] [color=#777777]"[and who] would punish religious dissent not only with “displeasant” words but with state violence."[/color] http://www.luminarium.org/renlit/wood.htm And https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DdAYSzj20t0C&pg=PA406&lpg=PA406&dq=%22while+he+was+in+office+he+did+everything+in+his+power+to+bring+that+extermination+to+pass.%E2%80%9D%22&source=bl&ots=Wm5Y1K7pJT&sig=YUyefQvYGhnSxZ9gbx2DwgpYess&hl=en&sa=X&ei=99hmUfTCMO_B4APS2oCQDw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22while%20he%20was%20in%20office%20he%20did%20everything%20in%20his%20power%20to%20bring%20that%20extermination%20to%20pass.%E2%80%9D%22&f=false Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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