Opinions/advice on our bands confederate flags please

[Yank]

When I was growing up in the Northern US, the confederate flag had (to my peer group), lost it's connotation as being racist. It had been appropriated by southern rock musicians to show pride of place and music preferences. It has been re-appropriated now and is deemed racist. It's all about context. Someone flying the Union Jack in London is probably seen as patriotic. Fly it in the carribean islands where the British installed slavery to get cheap sugar, or in Ireland or India and there would be different connotations. For all I know, the logo for the New England Pat's or the Boston Celtics, might be offensive on your side of the pond. Maybe I'll just fly the Jolly Roger...... oh, wait, are we allowed to say Roger or to be jolly about it?

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='Yank' timestamp='1503479408' post='3358497']
Maybe I'll just fly the Jolly Roger...... oh, wait, are we allowed to say Roger or to be jolly about it?
[/quote]

As long as all involved parties consent to the Roger then please go at it with as much Jollity as you wish!

[TimR]

No, neither of the logos are offensive.

I was asked to put money into the poor box while I was in a bar in Detroit in the 1990s. I left pretty quickly.

[Les]

We'll just have to accept that what we intended to be a cool looking "rock n roll rebel yell" stage dressing is returning to it's roots in people's hearts and minds and it's time in that capacity has gone.

Interestingly the photo I posted with the flags hanging either side of the drums was taken in April 2014 and caused (as far as I'm aware) no controversy back then although it has to be said it's making me wince a little in the context of this thread,

Times change and we shall respond accordingly.

Les

[Adrenochrome]

Good call Les. There are other symbls you could use, Lone Stars, NOLA fleur-de-lys (although used by Down and Crowbar) for example.

[chris_b]

Context is always the issue.

What the right wing community in some parts of the US still considers acceptable treatment of back communities beggars belief in a modern democratic country. Many of the past and present injustices suffered by black people in the South are still represented by the confederate flag.

The Cross of St George was appropriated by the hard right but it's the flag of England so no one in this country should be ashamed of flying it. But many are. I think we're slowly getting it back.

I'm not sure the Swastika will ever be rehabilitated, though.

[Donnyboy]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1503484109' post='3358558']
We'll just have to accept that what we intended to be a cool looking "rock n roll rebel yell" stage dressing is returning to it's roots in people's hearts and minds and it's time in that capacity has gone.

Interestingly the photo I posted with the flags hanging either side of the drums was taken in April 2014 and caused (as far as I'm aware) no controversy back then although it has to be said it's making me wince a little in the context of this thread,

Times change and we shall respond accordingly.

Les
[/quote]


I admire the way you have dealt with this sensitive issue... here's my suggestion for a alternative

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1503486837' post='3358588']
I'm not sure the Swastika will ever be rehabilitated, though.
[/quote]

The chap from Kula Shaker did attempt this a few years ago, citing the older Sanskrit roots of the symbol. Predictably, that didn't go very well...

[wambamalubop]

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1503314783' post='3357056']
This is an interesting one, as there are all sorts of Confederate flags. For me they represent the Rock n' Roll Rebel type thing and Lynyrd Skynyrd. I'm not to up on the American Civil war, but I bet it's not as clear cut as slavery/white supremacy/North good, South bad type thing.
[/quote]

Actually it is completely clean cut. The civil war was fought over slavery because it was the slavery issue that caused the Confederate states to secede from the Union.

The matter was settled for some time, but over the decades and particularly through the involvement of the KKK and similar organisations and individuals an attempt has been made to make it *seem* less clear cut as though there were other reasons for the secession of the rebel states.

In the 1920's statues of general Lee started to be erected to help create the myth of him as a hero, but after he lost his battles he actually repudiated his views on slavery. Unlike his contemporary fans.

A girl I was with at Uni was fascinated by all this 'rebel' confederate stuff and eventually married a white supremacist I think down in Louisiana, he eventually went to prison for murdering a black man.

They play for higher stakes in the US than we do in the UK.

I do think that you should keep the flag though as you don't have a dog in the fight and neither do I as we are not Nazi's. I see the flag as a symbol, once black people no longer find it offensive we'll know that as a culture we've moved on and solved the underlying problem that this is just a symptom of.

And the greatest tool in doing that is MUSIC!

Edited August 23, 2017 by wambamalubop

[TimR]

Some people don't want to forget.

[T-Bay]

Some realise it's important not to.....

[Lozz196]

I think there`s also the issue of context to take into account. If I walked into a venue that had Union Flags/Cross of St George Flags banded about, but it was a village fete for example I might not be that concerned. However if I walked into the same venue with the same flags but populated by DM wearing skinheads - and I am a DM wearing skinhead - then I might be a bit more cautious until I established what exactly was occuring. I do draw the line at the swastika and the hammer & sickle though, I don`t care for whatever reasons, if either of those are displayed I`m out of there.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1503490830' post='3358645']
The chap from Kula Shaker did attempt this a few years ago, citing the older Sanskrit roots of the symbol. Predictably, that didn't go very well...
[/quote]

Yep, and apparently it also used to be the red cross symbol in some countries, prior to WW2. Originally I believe it was meant to be a symbol of light, but the strangely-moustached one messed that up.

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited February 25, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Jus Lukin' timestamp='1503517513' post='3358919']
Those moustaches were fine 'til he f***ed those up, too! Forget the swastika, let's all reclaim those as next summer's must have facial hair.
[/quote]

[size=3][b]Deceased On The Buses actor releases statement: 'I deeply regret use of Nazi symbol'[/b][/size]

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1503518163' post='3358922']

[size=3][b]Deceased On The Buses actor releases statement: 'I deeply regret use of Nazi symbol'[/b][/size]
[/quote]

[i]"I'm going to get you Hitler!"[/i] He said.

[ivansc]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1503312959' post='3357042']
Is it time to lose the flag ?

ta

Les
[/quote]


The Confederate Flag or Old Glory is more a symbol of "hold onto your Confederate money, boys, the South's gon' rise agin!" than much to do with white supremacists. I understand they are more into the classic Nazi swastika flags.
And you also have to bear in mind that there is a huge difference in the symbolism of it in the North as opposed to the South.
Throughout the vast majority of the South there are very few overtly racist organisations and even fewer that show their asses in public these days.
A huge amount of noise has been made about the moronic actions of a tiny tiny minority of Southerners.

But as with most thing American it gets distorted via the UK and European media in general. For instance, it is pretty obvious from earlier comments here that just about everyone outside the States (and an awful lot of Northerners) think the Civil War was entirely about slavery. Take a look at the distribution of raw materials and the distribution of industrialisation in the US before the war and think about it. And also bear in mind how many slave owners lived north of the Mason Dixon line at the time.
back to the subject in hand:
Sadly this means you should probably listen to your agent, especially if it is going to cost you work. Me? I used to use a really big Jack Daniels flag onstage when I worked the UK country scene.

Edited August 24, 2017 by ivansc

[ivansc]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1503342543' post='3357458']
That flag is not cool to me.

You can read about history.

You wouldn't catch me within 20 feet of that merch booth.

Blue
[/quote]

(grin) But then you IS a Damyankee, ain't you?


Couldn't resist....

[Billy Apple]

Old Glory is not the Confederate flag.

[blue]

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1503533521' post='3359027']


(grin) But then you IS a Damyankee, ain't you?


Couldn't resist....
[/quote]

Yep, but I'm one of the good ones 😁

Blue

[Dad3353]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1503552188' post='3359046']
Yep, but I'm one of the good ones
...
[/quote]

Who's the other one..?

...

[dlloyd]

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1503532957' post='3359026']
The Confederate Flag or Old Glory is more a symbol of "hold onto your Confederate money, boys, the South's gon' rise agin!" than much to do with white supremacists. I understand they are more into the classic Nazi swastika flags. [/quote]

The KKK use the confederate flag.

[quote]But as with most thing American it gets distorted via the UK and European media in general. For instance, it is pretty obvious from earlier comments here that just about everyone outside the States (and an awful lot of Northerners) think the Civil War was entirely about slavery.
[/quote]

It [i]was [/i]entirely about slavery. Anyone who thinks otherwise should read the Cornerstone Speech of Alexander Stephens, the Vice President of the Confederacy. In it he talks briefly about economic differences, tariffs, etc., but on the direct cause of secession and formation of the Confederacy, he is crystal clear:

"[i]The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. [/i]"

"[i]Our new government is founded [...] upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition.[/i]"

"[i]With us, all of the white race, however high or low, rich or poor, are equal in the eye of the law. Not so with the negro. Subordination is his place. He, by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system.[/i]"

[lowdown]

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1503551126' post='3359045']
Old Glory is not the Confederate flag.
[/quote]

Indeed.

'Old Glory' (The flag of the United States nickname) is not without it's possible problems of offending people (If too political I will delete).

[size=4](Washington Post online)[/size]

[i][size=4][color=#111111][font=Georgia]"Old Glory could be viewed as an offensive or hate symbol to Native Americans, yet no one is asked to hide it or cover it up. In the Sand Creek Massacre, 200 Native Americans, mostly woman and children, were killed. Three hundred Shoshone Indians were murdered at Bear River. Nearly 150 Native Americans were murdered at Wounded Knee . More than 15,000 Cherokees were forced from their homelands and made to march 1,000 miles on what became known as the “Trail of Tears.” Eight thousand proud people died. Old Glory was praised and held proudly above their heads."[/font][/color][/size][/i]

Edited August 24, 2017 by lowdown

[ivansc]

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1503551126' post='3359045']
Old Glory is not the Confederate flag.
[/quote]
Depends where you come from North or South, but I take your point.
Never thought to ask while I lived in Tennessee, but I wonder if you can hang the Confederate States flag the wrong way up, like the Union Jack?

[dlloyd]

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1503566181' post='3359158']
Depends where you come from North or South, but I take your point.
Never thought to ask while I lived in Tennessee, but I wonder if you can hang the Confederate States flag the wrong way up, like the Union Jack?
[/quote]

The stars would be upside down, so yes... doubt there would be any symbolism to doing that.

Edit: (talking about the battle flag, as discussed in this thread... the national flags have other cues that would make hanging them upside down unlikely)

Edited August 24, 2017 by dlloyd