Opinions/advice on our bands confederate flags please

[ivansc]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1503560938' post='3359086']
The KKK use the confederate flag.



It [i]was [/i]entirely about slavery.
[/quote]

re: KKK so do a bunch of other non-racist associations. Just because spme abhorrent slime use it, doesnt make the flag itself abhorrent slime. (see what was swaid earlier about the union jack and the neo fascists in the UK)

Officially it might have been all about slavery, but then you have to dig a little deeper into the history books to get a clearer picture of what was going on back then. Prior to the war there were many indications of the attempts by the North to take over control of Southern prime assets to help keep costs down to the Northern industrial machine.
I lived in the South for a dozen years, very close to Andy Jacksons home & surrounded by Civil War sites. You get a very diufferent perspective on the war when you hear the losers side as well.

The winners write the history books.

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='Jus Lukin' timestamp='1503517513' post='3358919']
Those moustaches were fine 'til he f***ed those up, too!

Forget the swastika, let's all reclaim those as next summer's must have facial hair.
[/quote]

Even Ron Mael struggled with that particular battle at times:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA_kQHxJtj8

[ivansc]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1503566302' post='3359162']
The stars would be upside down, so yes... doubt there would be any symbolism to doing that.

Edit: (talking about the battle flag, as discussed in this thread... the national flags have other cues that would make hanging them upside down unlikely)

[/quote] Oops I should have said wrong way ROUND. Probably astill not obvious to spot any discrepancies I suppose.

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1503566181' post='3359158']
Depends where you come from North or South, but I take your point.
[/quote]

It doesn't depend on anything. Old Glory is a nick-name for the flag of the United States of America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Glory

[Bolo]

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1503566693' post='3359166']
Oops I should have said wrong way ROUND. Probably astill not obvious to spot any discrepancies I suppose.
[/quote]
Depends on the direction of the wind I would think. Or am I reading this wrong?

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited March 1, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[TimR]

[quote name='Bolo' timestamp='1503569685' post='3359221']

Depends on the direction of the wind I would think. Or am I reading this wrong?
[/quote]

No. It's always taken from the pole on the left hand side. So if the wind is blowing so the pole is on the right, you're looking at the back of the flag.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1503566598' post='3359164']Officially it might have been all about slavery, but then you have to dig a little deeper into the history books to get a clearer picture of what was going on back then. Prior to the war there were many indications of the attempts by the North to take over control of Southern prime assets to help keep costs down to the Northern industrial machine.[/quote]

The "Lost Cause of the Confederacy". There have been a lot of revisionist attempts to deny that slavery was the root cause of the Civil War... it relies entirely on avoiding the actual speeches given by Confederate leaders and professional historians utterly reject it.

[quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The winners write the history books. [/quote][/font][/color]

That notion, however often repeated, is false. [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Historians write the history books. [/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Edit: Here's a nice little blog article about this concept in relation to the Civil War... [/font][/color]https://pastexplore.wordpress.com/2016/02/15/bad-historical-thinking-history-is-written-by-the-victors/

Edited August 24, 2017 by dlloyd

[TrevorR]

On a pragmatic note I'd agree that you do need to think about the bottom line for your band and adapt the image as necessary.

As an example... there is a well established estate agents round our way with a really good reputation who were called after a picturesque little stretch of the Thames. However, a year or so ago their business suddenly plummeted. Then, despite having been established for twenty or more years they changed their name to Oasis and business was booming again.

Daft, petty and unconnected as it might be it seemed that folks didn't want to have big signs outside houses they were going to sell saying "Isis". People started to decide not to go into their branches too. So rather than sticking to their "principles" and refusing to change their name they decide NOT to go bust and call themselves "Oasis".

Just an example but it seems pertinent.

[ivansc]

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1503569292' post='3359213']
It doesn't depend on anything. Old Glory is a nick-name for the flag of the United States of America.
[url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Glory"]https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/Old_Glory[/url]
[/quote]

You wont find many "dyed in the wool" Southerners referring to the stars and bars as Old Glory, believe me.

[ivansc]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1503571701' post='3359246']
The "Lost Cause of the Confederacy". There have been a lot of revisionist attempts to deny that slavery was the root cause of the Civil War... it relies entirely on avoiding the actual speeches given by Confederate leaders and professional historians utterly reject it.

[/font][/color]

That notion, however often repeated, is false. [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Historians write the history books. [/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Edit: Here's a nice little blog article about this concept in relation to the Civil War... [/font][/color][url="https://pastexplore.wordpress.com/2016/02/15/bad-historical-thinking-history-is-written-by-the-victors/"]https://pastexplore....by-the-victors/[/url]
[/quote]

You are missing the point entirely. For the South yes it was all about slavery, but if you scratch beneath the surface of all that Northern rhetoric, there was a lot more than just a righteous humanitarian desire to emancipate the poor, downtrodden slaves. We ARE talking about politicians and mega-industrialists here. Leopards do not change their spots.

And that article you cite is pretty lame if you actually read it fully. Whoever the author is, HE is saying that Southern revisionists have attempted to rewrite the southern cause as being about secession rather than keeping slavery, which could well be right but has nothing to do with my take on the North's motivation..

Edited August 26, 2017 by ivansc

[Les]

[quote name='Burrito' timestamp='1503342306' post='3357453']
However people stand on it, 5 pages of conversation plugging your band when the post is only a day old is good going!
[/quote]

I think 9 pages of shameless self promotion is probably enough but I would like to take the opportunity while I'm here to remind readers of my weekly apres gig fine dining guide over in the status update column as well

[ivansc]

Aw... you had to go and spoil it!


I'm bowing out of this one - getting bit too serious for me. Sorry if I offended anyone's sensibilities.


SO sorry, but ya cant fight coincidence. A old friend of mine from Tennessee posted this on her facebook timeline today. Presumably because of all the fuss over civil war statuary etc.

[url="http://theferalirishman.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/just-so-we-are-clear.html?spref=fb&m=1"]http://theferalirish...ml?spref=fb&m=1[/url]

Edited August 27, 2017 by ivansc

[planer]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1503800941' post='3360950']I would like to take the opportunity while I'm here to remind readers of my weekly apres gig fine dining guide over in the status update column as well
[/quote]
In that case, having binned the flags, you could use the space to hang banners advertising local kebab shops?

It could be a win-win situation...

[lowdown]

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1503821928' post='3361002']
A old friend of mine from Tennessee posted this on her facebook timeline today. Presumably because of all the fuss over civil war statuary etc.

[url="http://theferalirishman.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/just-so-we-are-clear.html?spref=fb&m=1"]http://theferalirish...ml?spref=fb&m=1[/url]
[/quote]

Thanks for posting, that's an interesting read.
Some food for thought responses as well.

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1503778458' post='3360898']
You wont find many "dyed in the wool" Southerners referring to the stars and bars as Old Glory, believe me.
[/quote]

OK. What is your source for this?

[Rich]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1503340318' post='3357422']
the singer ... got hit in the head by a digger bucket and can't remember stuff now.
[/quote]
That is [i]such[/i] a Country thing to happen to a bloke. The only way it could be more C&W is if it'd happened because he'd tripped over his faithful ole dawg whilst loading his hunt'n rifle.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1503821928' post='3361002']
Aw... you had to go and spoil it!


I'm bowing out of this one - getting bit too serious for me. Sorry if I offended anyone's sensibilities.


SO sorry, but ya cant fight coincidence. A old friend of mine from Tennessee posted this on her facebook timeline today. Presumably because of all the fuss over civil war statuary etc.

[url="http://theferalirishman.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/just-so-we-are-clear.html?spref=fb&m=1"]http://theferalirish...ml?spref=fb&m=1[/url]
[/quote]

That's quite chilling to read. Using Mildred Lewis Rutherford as a credible source? This is a person who stated that African Americans were far happier under slavery than free. That That the Ku Klux Klan were the "very flower of Southern manhood"

[Trueno]

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1503826677' post='3361041']


OK. What is your source for this?
[/quote]

Good luck with that... when I asked for a source I got some googled stuff. Maybe google "academic rigour" otherwise you'll get hearsay and recycled articles.

[gareth]

This

[ivansc]

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1503826677' post='3361041']
OK. What is your source for this?
[/quote]

I lived and worked (as a musician) in Nashville from 1980 to 1991. My brother lived and worked in Nashville from 1965. He and his family finally moved from Nashville to Florida, where they still live to this day

[ivansc]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1503829541' post='3361060']
That's quite chilling to read. Using Mildred Lewis Rutherford as a credible source? This is a person who stated that African Americans were far happier under slavery than free. That That the Ku Klux Klan were the "very flower of Southern manhood"
[/quote]

"[font=Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif][size=4]Mildred Lewis Rutherford (1852-1928) was for many years the historian for the United Daughters Of The Confederacy (UDC). In her book Truths Of History she stated that there were more slaveholders in the Union Army (315,000) than the Confederate Army (200,000). Statistics and estimates also show that about 300,000 blacks supported the Confederacy versus about 200,000 for the Union. Clearly the war would have been fought along different lines if it had been fought over slavery. " was all I quoted. [/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif][size=4]I had never heard of her before seeing that article. [/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif][size=4]In that, she is reported as saying the slaves were better fed and better cared for than the factory workers in the North. I doubt if either group were exactly happy about their lot in life, but then life in general was a deal harsher in the 1800s than nowadays. [/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif][size=4]Read up on some of the stuff that was gong down among the under-privileged (including slaves) in Britain at the time.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif][size=4]And now I really AM baling out.[/size][/font]

[dlloyd]

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1503873921' post='3361309']
"[font=Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif]Mildred Lewis Rutherford (1852-1928) was for many years the historian for the United Daughters Of The Confederacy (UDC). In her book Truths Of History she stated that there were more slaveholders in the Union Army (315,000) than the Confederate Army (200,000). Statistics and estimates also show that about 300,000 blacks supported the Confederacy versus about 200,000 for the Union. Clearly the war would have been fought along different lines if it had been fought over slavery. " was all I quoted. [/font]
[font=Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif]I had never heard of her before seeing that article. [/font]
[font=Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif]In that, she is reported as saying the slaves were better fed and better cared for than the factory workers in the North. I doubt if either group were exactly happy about their lot in life, but then life in general was a deal harsher in the 1800s than nowadays. [/font]
[font=Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif]Read up on some of the stuff that was gong down among the under-privileged (including slaves) in Britain at the time.[/font]
[font=Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif]And now I really AM baling out.[/font]
[/quote]

I have heard of her.

Read this article... (ignore the title if you can.)

[url="http://www.salon.com/2013/03/16/the_south_still_lies_about_the_civil_war/"]http://www.salon.com..._the_civil_war/[/url]

Edited August 27, 2017 by dlloyd

[TimR]

Interesting comment in last night's Evening Standard about London's historic statues.

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/simon-jenkins-it-s-time-to-have-the-argument-about-london-s-historic-statues-a3622161.html

[rorysmith]

Played an all day bank holiday affair at a pub in Shrewsbury back in May where a confederate flag was being used at a backdrop. Front man asked for it to be taken down before we played as he didn't want it to be up when we played and also didn't want even the slightest chance any photos or videos would end up online with us playing with it in the background.

Funnily enough we all agreed and the organisers took it straight down knowing full well we wouldn't play with it up.