Opinions/advice on our bands confederate flags please

[fretmeister]

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1503317403' post='3357096']
I'm not saying that war was not about the above, just that (I should imagine) there is more than meets the eye.
[/quote]

The same way that there is more to any other oppressive regime flag - of course.

IIRC Opera was far better funded under Mussolini. But that doesn't reduce the impact of the vile stuff in the slightest.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1503317482' post='3357097']
Can you recommend a book on the subject?
[/quote]

There's lots of them. Ken Burns' book and multipart documentary is good.

The Wikipedia article isn't too bad as a general introduction.

First though, read the Wikipedia article on the Cornerstone Speech, the speech given by Confederate Vice President Alexander Stevens in 1861, the birth of the CSA...

[url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech"]https://en.wikipedia...nerstone_Speech[/url]

Edited August 21, 2017 by dlloyd

[Mickeyboro]

Unfortunately in the Trump era things are bound to polarise.

In my travels I have seen many countries' citizens fly tgeir flag with prude. Shame our own Union Flag has been appropriated by extremists in the past...

So with regret I would advise moving on, image-wise.

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1503317817' post='3357107']
There's lots of them. Ken Burns' book and multipart documentary is good.

The Wikipedia article isn't too bad as a general introduction.

First though, read the Wikipedia article on the Cornerstone Speech, the speech given by Confederate Vice President Alexander Stevens in 1861, the birth of the CSA...

[url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech"]https://en.wikipedia...nerstone_Speech[/url]
[/quote]

Cheers

[DJpullchord]

Sadly the flag has been hi jacked by nasty people. You probably don't want to attract nasty people. I'd lose the flag.

Crazy how symbolism has such power.

Good luck!

[fretmeister]

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1503317482' post='3357097']
Can you recommend a book on the subject?
[/quote]

"[color=#101010]In the spring of 1861, decades of simmering tensions between the northern and southern United States over issues including states’ rights versus federal authority, westward expansion and slavery exploded into the American Civil War (1861-65). The election of the anti-slavery Republican Abraham Lincoln as president in 1860 caused seven southern states to secede from the Union to form the Confederate States of America; four more joined them after the first shots of the Civil War were fired. "[/color]

http://www.history.com/topics/american-civil-war/american-civil-war-history

and the US's own specialist museum on the subject (lots there)

https://acwm.org/about-us/our-mission

It is a compulsory subject in schools in the USA. There are plenty of books out there.

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1503316694' post='3357084']
Wanting to keep it because you think it looks cool is frankly a bit naive. Given the febrile atmosphere over the pond in relation to this issue, how long do you think it will take for people to start taking sides over here? Hard not to see it as a headache you don't need TBH.
[/quote]

I'm with lefty on this one. It's interesting how the potency of certain symbols can change, sometimes very rapidly. A few years ago, I saw Skynyrd at the Hammersmith Apollo, replete with Confederacy flag tied to the mic stand. I scoffed to my friend about it seeming rather crass, but I didn't recoil in horror at the time. Of course, the surrounding context was all very different: Barack Obama was still in the White House, many of us probably felt (very naively) that racism and white supremacy were on the way out, and perhaps there was a tenuous argument that the flag could be "reclaimed" as a symbol, as Billy Apple suggests, of Southern Rock'n'Roll.

In the meantime, I know white supremacist/neo-Nazi groups were always active, and a lot of the them always rallied around the Confederates' flag, but in the last year or so it's been alarming how quickly they've publicly reclaimed said flag. The news coverage of recent marches and rallies draws a very clear dividing line - flying one of those flags runs too much risk of looking like an endorsement of Southern states neo-Nazi groups.

[fftc]

[quote name='DJpullchord' timestamp='1503318068' post='3357115']
Sadly the flag has been hi jacked by nasty people. You probably don't want to attract nasty people. I'd lose the flag.

Crazy how symbolism has such power.

Good luck!
[/quote]

That's the point though. The flag hasn't been 'high-jacked' by nasty people. It has always been a nasty flag, as the above link to the 'cornerstone speech' points out.

I grew up when Dukes of Hazard were on the TV. I don't remember if there were racist elements in that show, and even if there had been I was too busy getting excited by the cool car jumping over bridges. Yeah, the flag had a bit of cool charm about it. I was naive.

A few years later in my late teens and early 20's there were some folk in the rock and metal scene where I lived with confederate patches with slogans like 'The South will rise again' sewn on their denim jackets. If I knew then what I know now I'd have challenged them on that, but I was as naive as I expect they were at the time.

Now when I see that flag I think racist. I expect the only people who want to be viewed as racists are real racists. If you are not one of them then don't fly that flag and don't put a pillow case on your head with eyeholes cut out of it. Both say the same thing to me.

[Les]

I've had my terminally offended cyber flounce brigade" chucked back at me a couple of times please don't think I'm referring to anyone on here who has an opinion, I'm not, I'm talking about the point scoring look at me I'm offended cos' I saw an opportunity type's, we all know them.

I knew from the start I would get generally intelligent well thought out and knowledgeable answers on here.

There has to be some context in this, we decorate ourselves and we decorate the stage, we even have hobby horses that the girls like to nick and ride about the dance floor with. We actually hang them from the speakers with nooses ( I just know I'm going to regret passing that snippet on ).

People have commented when they walk in and look at the stage/windowsill/postage stamp area that it looks good and looks like something's about to happen.

We don't by any stretch of the imagination look like any sort of rally/political/fascist/KKK meeting, we look like a band that's made an effort.

As I stated before we have NEVER had an adverse comment or raised eyebrow about any of it. We do know what the flags about and I'm trying to gauge if our punters see it for anything other than decoration

And I do thank you all for your contribution to this.

[fretmeister]

[quote name='fftc' timestamp='1503318927' post='3357130']
That's the point though. The flag hasn't been 'high-jacked' by nasty people. It has always been a nasty flag, as the above link to the 'cornerstone speech' points out.

I grew up when Dukes of Hazard were on the TV. I don't remember if there were racist elements in that show, and even if there had been I was too busy getting excited by the cool car jumping over bridges. Yeah, the flag had a bit of cool charm about it. I was naive.

A few years later in my late teens and early 20's there were some folk in the rock and metal scene where I lived with confederate patches with slogans like 'The South will rise again' sewn on their denim jackets. If I knew then what I know now I'd have challenged them on that, but I was as naive as I expect they were at the time.

[i][u][b]Now when I see that flag I think racist. I expect the only people who want to be viewed as racists are real racists. If you are not one of them then don't fly that flag and don't put a pillow case on your head with eyeholes cut out of it. Both say the same thing to me.[/b][/u][/i]
[/quote]

I agree totally.

And your history with seeing the flag as a kid is the same as mine.

And about 15 years ago or so, my next door neighbour had an orange Dodge Charger. He ran out of money before he could put the flag on it (easy to run out when it had IIRC a 6.5 litre V8 with a 3 speed auto box. Did under 10mpg even when driving carefully. As wide as a double decker bus too. Stupid bloody thing). Made a glorious noise though)

[bartelby]

you have Confederate flags and nooses????

Think you need to drop that asap...

[gs_triumph]

You might find it attracts the wrong audience...

[TimR]

I have absolutely no interest in American history and until I read this thread I had no idea that the flag had anything to do with white supremacists.

It's just one of the old pre-independence US flags.

I really can't believe anyone in the UK would believe you were white supremacists. Is there even such a thing in the UK?

[wateroftyne]

Wait... nooses? What?

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503319789' post='3357147']
It's just one of the old pre-independence US flags.
[/quote]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503319789' post='3357147']
I have absolutely no interest in American history[/quote]

^^^ This is evident.

[Les]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1503319827' post='3357148']
Wait... nooses? What?
[/quote]

I'm getting myself on the "consideration for being banned" list here aren't I ?

I'll try and find a couple of photo's to add a bit of context.

[TimR]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1503319975' post='3357151']




^^^ This is evident.
[/quote]

What proportion of the UK do you think do?

I think it's nonsense to believe that people in the UK flying confederate flags are white supremacists. In the same way as assuming anyone flying a Union Jack votes UKIP.

It's all about context.

[fretmeister]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1503319107' post='3357137']
I've had my terminally offended cyber flounce brigade" chucked back at me a couple of times please don't think I'm referring to anyone on here who has an opinion, I'm not, I'm talking about the point scoring look at me I'm offended cos' I saw an opportunity type's, we all know them.

I knew from the start I would get generally intelligent well thought out and knowledgeable answers on here.

There has to be some context in this, we decorate ourselves and we decorate the stage, we even have hobby horses that the girls like to nick and ride about the dance floor with. We actually hang them from the speakers with nooses ( I just know I'm going to regret passing that snippet on ).

People have commented when they walk in and look at the stage/windowsill/postage stamp area that it looks good and looks like something's about to happen.

We don't by any stretch of the imagination look like any sort of rally/political/fascist/KKK meeting, we look like a band that's made an effort.

As I stated before we have NEVER had an adverse comment or raised eyebrow about any of it. We do know what the flags about and I'm trying to gauge if our punters see it for anything other than decoration

And I do thank you all for your contribution to this.
[/quote]

The only acceptable contexts for a symbol of racism is when it appears in history / academic books or is being condemned.

I think you probably hoped the majority would support the continuing use of the flag at your shows.
No offence - but that is as naive as using it.

Why on earth would you want to be associated with it anymore?

Why would you want to have to explain "context" every time? Or more to the point, not have the opportunity to explain context because the venue just won't book you, or a punter won't buy a ticket or T-shirt?

There's at least 41 months of Trump left - it's not going to get any better. More people will see the images in the news - that flag being held aloft by guys in white hoods, or wearing stuff like this:

(Seen at a rally in the US over the weekend and posted on twitter)



You have a product to sell - your band.

You could kill your reputation with 1 review that raises the flag a an issue.

Here is an example - when for all their marketing expertise Umbro decided to name a trainer "Zyklon"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2222783.stm

People who saw that advert only had 1 or 2 reactions. Either they thought it was monumentally thick, or that Umbro were anti-semitic.

Neither is an attractive quality to a customer.

[fftc]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1503320016' post='3357152']

I'll try and find a couple of photo's to add a bit of context.
[/quote]

I'm not sure context will help!

I think the main point is you can do the whole Americana thing without anything that could be interpreted the wrong way, so just drop the confederate flags, nooses and the pillow cases and you'll be fine.

[ambient]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503320203' post='3357154']


What proportion of the UK do you think do?

I think it's nonsense to believe that people in the UK flying confederate flags are white supremacists. In the same way as assuming anyone flying a Union Jack votes UKIP.

It's all about context.
[/quote]

I think quite a lot would. The confederate army was fighting to keep slavery. That's what the civil war was about. My knowledge of American history is scant, but I do know that at least.

[ambient]

[quote name='fftc' timestamp='1503320305' post='3357157']


I'm not sure context will help!

I think the main point is you can do the whole Americana thing without anything that could be interpreted the wrong way, so just drop the confederate flags, nooses and the pillow cases and you'll be fine.
[/quote]

Nooses and pillow cases!

I missed that bit. I think you really need to rethink your band's image.

[fretmeister]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503319789' post='3357147']
I have absolutely no interest in American history and until I read this thread I had no idea that the flag had anything to do with white supremacists.

It's just one of the old pre-independence US flags.

I really can't believe anyone in the UK would believe you were white supremacists. Is there even such a thing in the UK?
[/quote]

National Front
Combat 18
Blood and Honour

All UK white supremacy groups. There are more.

[ZilchWoolham]

If I went to a show in the UK and saw a confederate flag, I'd probably assume naivety or ignorance, assuming the general mood is rather cheery. If I saw confederate flags and nooses, I'd turn away immediately. I know this isn't what you intended, but the one thing that would immediately spring to mind is, honestly, lynchings. So, I'll join the chorus here and recommend you drop those elements ASAP.

[fretmeister]

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1503319107' post='3357137']
I've had my terminally offended cyber flounce brigade" chucked back at me a couple of times please don't think I'm referring to anyone on here who has an opinion, I'm not, I'm talking about the point scoring look at me I'm offended cos' I saw an opportunity type's, we all know them.

I knew from the start I would get generally intelligent well thought out and knowledgeable answers on here.

There has to be some context in this, we decorate ourselves and we decorate the stage, we even have hobby horses that the girls like to nick and ride about the dance floor with. We actually hang them from the speakers with nooses ( I just know I'm going to regret passing that snippet on ).

People have commented when they walk in and look at the stage/windowsill/postage stamp area that it looks good and looks like something's about to happen.

We don't by any stretch of the imagination look like any sort of rally/political/fascist/KKK meeting, we look like a band that's made an effort.

As I stated before we have NEVER had an adverse comment or raised eyebrow about any of it. We do know what the flags about and I'm trying to gauge if our punters see it for anything other than decoration

And I do thank you all for your contribution to this.
[/quote]

Nooses?

I am looking forward to hearing your "context" for the symbol of lynching.

[fretmeister]

Another thought

You may not be racist in the slightest.

You will attract those who are. They will assume you are too. They will then assume the venue is cool with that.
That in turn emboldens the racists.