Does anyone still bi-amp?

[HazBeen]

Back in the early '90s I had a bi-amp bass rig. The main reason for it was that how ever much I tried any high(ish) gain bass pedal resulted in low end loss to an extent that it annoyed me and in the end I ended up getting a X-over to split my clean signal, with low going to a 410 and hi going to a 215.

With speaker technology, amp technology and FX pedal technology moving one considerably over the years I sold my bi-amp set-up many many years ago.

I did use a 2 amp set-up for a while with 2 seperate preamps feeding both sides of a QSC PLX1804 with my FX chain on just the one side.

Recently we have seen the Tech21 DUG and Orange OB series come out, basically harking back to days of old. And sometimes I think adding an amp and buying a crossover (I already have 2 Tecamp L212s that could hand both the lows and highs) would give me next level bass sounds.

Looking for opinions here, pro/con/any other thoughts.

Cheers Basschat

Edited August 21, 2017 by HazBeen

[Kiwi]

I think you're right about speaker tech progressing so much since the late 70's when biamped columns were so popular. I also think that PA systems have progressed too so that massive stacks aren't needed when there's adequate FOH power (and bi/triamping). Backline is less about filling the venue and more about hearing yourself clearly on stage.

These days it tends to be more subtle - used to separate HF horns and tweeters from a 15" or 12" woofer in many combos. Or pedals with features like lo pass overdrive or chorus, or dual band compression.

[LewisK1975]

Probably the most famous champion of the 2 amp setup is Billy Sheehan. There's plenty of Youtube vids / rig rundowns where he explains it in detail and why he does it.

He has 2 totally separate signal chains. One comes from the EB0 position pickup on his Yamaha Attitude and stays clean, keeping the low frequencies rumbling away, and the other signal comes from the split-P pickup on the bass and has little / no bass frequencies at all, and this is where he adds the distortion / other effects.

I did something similar for a while but by having a stereo pedal board, feeding 2 inputs on our mixer.

It works really well for not losing your low end when bass distortions are used.

I do wonder with all the current crop of expensive bass distortions around (Darkglass etc) whether it'll even be an issue in the future..

[fretmeister]

Sort of.

I did it for years with proper amps - 2 heads, 2 big cabs etc. Dual output basses.

Now I do it within my Helix, routing each path to a different amp and cab.

So yes - but with modern kit. But saying that I'm not sure it's necessary anymore. More than any other bit of kit, the Helix has huge routing options. Could blend 4 tones at once and send them all in mono (or split to separate amps for that matter)

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Bi-amping can work very well when done right, but where most bass rigs are concerned it's done wrong. The wrong way is using full range bass cabs for both amps. The right way is with an electronic crossover that sends the lows to a dedicated low frequency cab, say a 1x18 or 2x15, the mids and highs to a dedicated midrange/HF cab, loaded with six or eight inch midrange drivers. A variation is using a bass amp and bass cab for the lows and clean mids, a guitar combo for overdriven tones, but that's not bi-amping, it's dual amping.

[Kevin Dean]

If I have the time & to be honest bothered , I use My Ashdown labs 600 to power a 4 x 8 cab & Di from that into a ABM 1000 powering a 12" cab just so I can set up different EQ for each it does sound great But I not sure how much it's noticed in a pub full of punter that have had a skin full lol .

[HazBeen]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1503336766' post='3357372']
Bi-amping can work very well when done right, but where most bass rigs are concerned it's done wrong. The wrong way is using full range bass cabs for both amps. The right way is with an electronic crossover that sends the lows to a dedicated low frequency cab, say a 1x18 or 2x15, the mids and highs to a dedicated midrange/HF cab, loaded with six or eight inch midrange drivers. A variation is using a bass amp and bass cab for the lows and clean mids, a guitar combo for overdriven tones, but that's not bi-amping, it's dual amping.
[/quote]

I was hoping you'd chip in BFM. Back in the day I did a bastardised version of what you suggest, as I split my signal, then used a crossover into an amp driving an SWR 410 (with tweeter off) for the lows and another driving an old Peavey 215 (no tweeter) for the highs+fx. For some reason that sounded better/more musical to me. I think I might have stolen the idea off switching the 410/215 from Billy Sheehan.

Without going into too much detail, I tried some crossover trickery on my full range cabs today and it sounded awful, your comments on full range thus reaffirm my findings.

What if I turn the tweeter off on one and the tweeter on full whack n the other.... hmmm....

On a different note, remember the Trace 1x18, 410 and hi-box 4x5 set-ups of back in the day? Back breakers that sounded great

Edited August 21, 2017 by HazBeen

[HazBeen]

Look what I found!

[Img]https://www.parts-express.com/Data/Default/Images/Catalog/Original/245-1182_HR_0.jpg[/IMG]

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

On a technical note, the main reason why large PA systems use active (electronic) crossovers and multi-amping is they give much better protection to midrange and high frequency drivers than passive crossovers that use one amp to drive the entire audio range. Bass rigs don't need that kind of complexity. Dual-amping does make sense. The first time I heard it done was by Chris Squire on the first [i]Yes [/i]album. It took me 20 years to figure out how he got his tone, and then only because I read about it in an interview. You could never do it with a bass amp and pedal, because that affected the entire signal, not just above 100Hz or so with the guitar combo while leaving what was coming from the bass amp unaffected.

[la bam]

With the new mark bass evo 1 I can put 2 amps into 1 speaker. Not traditional bi amping as such, but setting one amp clean and one driven helps keep the low end present.

[Wolverinebass]

[quote name='HazBeen' timestamp='1503341292' post='3357440']
Look what I found!

[Img]https://www.parts-express.com/Data/Default/Images/Catalog/Original/245-1182_HR_0.jpg[/IMG]
[/quote]

That's what I use in my rig, but I mix the signal back to mono once the treble side is processed.

[HazBeen]

[quote name='la bam' timestamp='1503346921' post='3357526']
With the new mark bass evo 1 I can put 2 amps into 1 speaker. Not traditional bi amping as such, but setting one amp clean and one driven helps keep the low end present.
[/quote]

I have just seen this, great dual amping idea, the 2 xlr outs actually send a true dual amp signal to FOH. Perfect for larger applications, the speaker out is indeed a single mixdown of the 2 signals. Pretty cool.

[yorks5stringer]

Can I be the first to say I'm not bi-curious?

[HazBeen]

[quote name='yorks5stringer' timestamp='1503357343' post='3357628']
Can I be the first to say I'm not bi-curious?
[/quote]

Oh dear....

[Kevsy71]

I'm tempted to try this via my Trace GP11 + power amp sending <250 Hz to my Greenboy Dually 215, and >250 Hz to an Ampeg 2x10. Would love to try it with a Greenboy Crazy 88 atop the Dually though

[fuzzonaut]

I used to bi-amp for a while, with a Marshall IBS 3540 amp and an Ampeg Isovent cab.

It was ok, but sooner or later, I wanted to have a clean-dirty setup, so I switched to dual amping, going full range into 2 bass rigs, running one signal dry (or with octaver) and the other one dirty (and/or modulated/delayed).

That sounded much better to my ears, so in the meantime, I have expanded to a dry-dirty-dirty setup, hitting 3 rigs full range.
I have a 18" folded horn cab for dry (and Meatbox wet/Octaver) and one dirty signal has 2x15", the other 2x15 and 2x10". I have dirt boxes going to rig 2 [i]and [/i]3, and dirt boxes going to [i]either [/i]rig 2 or 3..
To split to the 2 dirty rigs I use a Boss DD7 delay.
Love it!

On stage, I send the dry signal direct to the house and use only the 2 dirty rigs on stage - usually "their" bass rig (backline or other band) and one of mine. But I also brought 2 full rigs before.

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited March 1, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='yorks5stringer' timestamp='1503357343' post='3357628']
Can I be the first to say I'm not bi-curious?
[/quote]

I don't like having too many knobs to fiddle with

[HazBeen]

Why did the bassist cross the road? 'Cause The soundman said he needed a cross over........

Edited August 22, 2017 by HazBeen

[Dood]

[quote name='HazBeen' timestamp='1503341292' post='3357440']
Look what I found!

[Img]https://www.parts-express.com/Data/Default/Images/Catalog/Original/245-1182_HR_0.jpg[/IMG]
[/quote]

On the subject of Sheehan, this is the very crossover he's used for years to carve the lows off his 'high signal path' driven from the P pickup on his basses.

[Merton]

[quote name='Wolverinebass' timestamp='1503351658' post='3357586']


That's what I use in my rig, but I mix the signal back to mono once the treble side is processed.
[/quote]

Late to the party but was going to say "I'm sure I've seen one of these recently"

Your rig sounded amazing Andy, whatever the technical term for it if it's not true biamping, it can destroy walls

[Wolverinebass]

[quote name='Merton' timestamp='1503762625' post='3360792']


Late to the party but was going to say "I'm sure I've seen one of these recently"

Your rig sounded amazing Andy, whatever the technical term for it if it's not true biamping, it can destroy walls
[/quote]

Thanks Martin. It was good to meet you and try out some of your brilliant basses.

I guess the crossover was very apparent on the 12ver where you really need the clean lows and when you hear the treble which is all really distorted and quad chorused (on a 12!! I need help! Ha!) it tends to sound horrible. Mix them together though and it just works amazingly well. You keep the bottom, as well as bringing out all the chime and harmonics in the top.

I would call mine "pseudo bi-amping" as the highs and lows get mixed back to a single mono signal rather than going to different cabs. It works for me. It might not for everyone.

[Merton]

Straying slightly off topic your 12-er did indeed sound stupendous with your pseudo biamping

Btw I've spent all week thinking about Wals

[NancyJohnson]

Now then. Get a coffee.

I ran a tri-amp set up in the 1990's; I was running so many cabinet combinations it was mental. I had a rack with a Trace GP12SMX preamp, a Trace PPA600 stereo power amp and a mono powerstage (which could have been a Trace, but I don't remember). I could feed this into a combination of an SWR Workingman15, a Goliath 4x10 and a Trace 4x5 bright box. There were other cabinets. It did sound huge, but it was ridiculous really, especially when you rock up to a gig and your guitarist is sporting some little combo, so It all went. Speaker technology has come on somewhat since then.

Interestingly, the crossover thing. I used a Rolls SX21 for a while in an effort to get a decent tone out of a Waterstone Tom Petersson 12-string. It did work really well and I was able to route the fundamentals through one signal chain and the octaves through a second dirty route; there was very little spillage and it was a sound investment at the time, so it's highly recommended from me. I wish I'd hung onto it when I moved the Petersson on.

[Harry1953]

Probably I'm overkilling, but I'm using a tri-amped rig. Playing a bass guitar for over 30 years, I've learned that:

1-You need a lot of power to make a lead gitarist humble and to have expression, transparency and a constant sound at low and high volumes.

 2- I use a Powersoft amp (M28q) delivering up to 2800 Watts: 1400Watts to an 18"sub, 700 to a 2x12" and (limited)

  700 to a 2 x 10" ( Beyma 10mcf400Nd).

More technical: A low B is about 33Hz, for this you need a real woofer (at least 15""). Signal analysis shows that subs have ups and downs of many dB's in their frequency range. With the dsp in the Powersoft you can create a fairly flat frequency response, (dependant on the size of the room) which has a great impact on transparancy. A standard speaker grille can not handle this, hence I use a Weber barbecue grille for the woofer.

Also overtones of bass strings can reach up to 12,000Hz as shown by signal analysis, which explains the expensive Beyma's.

Another technical point is that passive cross-over filters lower the damping factor of amp-to-speaker interaction and may add some mud to the sound.

In my studio, the bass guitar players using the rig are satisfied. It was expensive (speakers ±1200$ and cabinet materials ±400$, Powersoft 2,000$), but we are happy with the rig.

In conclusion, I wanted a rig that is able to reflect my playing.  My dogma is that you can not add something to a rig that is not capable to pass it, but filter these things you don't want.