Do you take good gear to rough venues?

[ambient]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1504011561' post='3362097']


It's only stuff, after all. A hassle if nicked or damaged, but not life-threatening in any way. Insurance is just betting, really; so far, by luck and diligence, I've never had any occasion to win such a bet. It could happen, of course, but in the meantime I'm not concerned by looking for insurers, comparing rates, having to renew (and fork out, naturally...). I can safely say that I've never lost a bet in my life, so far, and for good reason; I never bet.
[/quote]

I had my MacBook knocked off a table at a gig in Bournemouth earlier this year. I wouldn't gamble again ever.

[TimR]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1504012932' post='3362106']


I had my MacBook knocked off a table at a gig in Bournemouth earlier this year. I wouldn't gamble again ever.
[/quote]

If you're taking £7k+ worth of gear to a gig, that's a different question entirely. Especially when your cheapest single item is worth more than all my gear put together. You really have all your eggs in one basket.

My gear isn't even a 5th of yours.

[Woodinblack]

My gear is all insured, but that doesn't mean I want to let it get broken, took long enough waiting for the last maruschyk!
I do need to get a cheap laptop for gigs though, I am not taking my macbook

[fretmeister]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1504013504' post='3362111']
If you're taking £7k+ worth of gear to a gig, that's a different question entirely. Especially when your cheapest single item is worth more than all my gear put together. You really have all your eggs in one basket.

My gear isn't even a 5th of yours.
[/quote]

It's all relative though.

If I had a million in the bank maybe I would't worry about insuring £1500 of gig rig. But if I only had £500 in disposable to replace that gear then I think I'd be more likely to insure it.

That's the approach I take (aside from public liability insurance which I think should be compulsory) - if the gear I'm taking out could not be replaced from my "fun" money without credit / loans / whatever then either it gets insured or I don't take it.

[bassbiscuits]

A bloke at a posh function gig threw a stool at my band onstage once - I think he had some issues.

Nearly hit our banjo player. Can't hold that against him in fairness tho.

IIRC i was using my old P bass at the time too, so quite fortunate really.

Edited August 29, 2017 by bassbiscuits

[neilp]

Electric gear is all insured, and lets face it, even a Wal can be replaced pretty easily. Put it in its case during the break, its in your hands the rest of the time. I try not to be precious about these things. I'd be gutted if any of my basses got damaged, but that's life....

[fftc]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1504015155' post='3362121']
(aside from public liability insurance which I think should be compulsory)
[/quote]

What kind of disasters are you foreseeing that requires public liability insurance to be compulsory?

Edited August 29, 2017 by fftc

[fretmeister]

[quote name='fftc' timestamp='1504015969' post='3362127']
What kind of disasters are you foreseeing that requires public liability insurance to be compulsory?
[/quote]

PA falls onto a punter. Punter gets brain damage. Band will be liable for his 24 hour care / loss of earnings etc from that point until the day he dies - and perhaps beyond if there are dependants.
Or even at the bottom end - cable makes punter trip and break wrist and can't work for 2 months.

I calculate losses like that for a living.

And for anything other than a broken finger or two, 99% of bands couldn't afford to deal with the fallout.

PL cover is cheap as chips precisely because it is hardly ever needed. It's also worth every penny.

[Maude]

Our band has PLI but I don't bother with insuring my own gear. I think someone quoted £50 a year earlier in the thread, at that rate I've saved myself £1250 so far. I have some quite nice gear now but worst I've had was lately when a pisshead fell over my monitor and emptied a full pint over my Line6 X3, pedal still works but if it had frazzled then £150 would buy a second hand one.
People are adding up the value of everything they gig with but what's got to happen for it all to get destroyed? I don't know what excess is applied to this type of insurance but if it was £50 for the insurance and £50 excess then my Line6 pedal wouldn't be worth claiming for anyway really.
I gig with good gear in sh*t pubs, I'm not precious about my gear but I'm don't take unnecessary risks with it and that outlook has been fine for 25 years. By not having insurance I've got £1250 in the kitty if anything happens, and every year it doesn't happen I can add another £50 to the pot. It's all been paid for by gigs so doesn't owe me anything anyway

[Dan Dare]

You get PL insurance automatically if you are a MU member - reason enough to join. With regard to the original question, it depends on the venue. If the playing position is reasonably out of reach of the punters, for example, I'd take decent stuff. I'm more concerned about my PA than my bass gear, which stands behind me and protected to an extent as a result.

[rogerstodge]

I don't need to play rough venues to get my gear battered, our singer knocked my trusty P bass flying for the 2nd time the other night, I now tune it, put it back in the case until the gig then straight back in its case after

[Cat Burrito]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1504008170' post='3362060']A quick tot up of my gigging rig puts me at £1500. £4K seems an awful lot of money to me.[/quote]

I was gigging two Squiers and a second hand rig for a while but I now own a couple of £1500+ basses (I only take one at a time) and a £1200 rig - factor in cases, pedals and part ownership of the PA and it is quite easy to get towards that figure.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1504008170' post='3362060']If I was that worried about it I'd get it insured. I think last time I looked into it it was £50 a year.[/quote]

Good advice. I have had insurance in the past although gave up when I went down to the Squiers.

I think we'll be giving that venue a miss for future bookings but some of the bookings are a little on the less "fine dining" side of pubs.

[T-Bay]

My main bass is my most valuable, I was disappointed when it arrived a small the condition was a little 'optimistic' from the description. But the fact it's far from perfect is a relief in some ways as I don't worry about it picking up the odd nick here and there. If I had the same bass in mint condition I don't think I would use it half as much. It's like my Capri, when it was ratty I would take it anywhere, when I have finished the restoration I will probably be scared to leave it anywhere. It doesn't make sense in a way but there you go.

[Woodinblack]

how do you get public liability for a group? I had it for my business when I was contracting, and my wife had it for shows when she did stalls for her shop, but the group is 4 individuals and a load of random gear. Would be interested though

--

Edit: I guess I should have looked for new threads first! http://basschat.co.uk/topic/311003-liability-insurance

Edited August 29, 2017 by Woodinblack

[Count Bassy]

[sub]What's the point of any gear if you never take it out?[/sub]

[neilp]

I find it hard to believe that, in the modern world, anyone gives any kind of public performance for reward without PL insurance. As has already been said, MU gives it for free along with £3k worth of instrument cover (I think its £3k but I could be wrong). I have even been asked for details of my PL insurance....

[ambient]

[quote name='neilp' timestamp='1504049785' post='3362406']
I find it hard to believe that, in the modern world, anyone gives any kind of public performance for reward without PL insurance. As has already been said, MU gives it for free along with £3k worth of instrument cover (I think its £3k but I could be wrong). I have even been asked for details of my PL insurance....
[/quote]

I think it's £2k they give for gear, that includes accidental damage too, not just theft.

A lot of venues insist on PL insurance, after all, who are any injured parties going to go after if the band who's gear caused an accident has disappeared?

The MU is great too if you're a self-employed musician who needs a DBS certificate, you can't do it as an individual it has to be an organisation that requests the check, the MU will for £50 get it done for you.

[fftc]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1504016336' post='3362131']
PA falls onto a punter. Punter gets brain damage. Band will be liable for his 24 hour care / loss of earnings etc from that point until the day he dies - and perhaps beyond if there are dependants.
Or even at the bottom end - cable makes punter trip and break wrist and can't work for 2 months.

[/quote]

Would things like that not be covered by the venues insurance? Unless it was a specific act of negligence by the band?

[fftc]

Just looked at MU membership.

Seems a bit expensive for a hobbyist.

[fretmeister]

[quote name='fftc' timestamp='1504076901' post='3362449']
Would things like that not be covered by the venues insurance? Unless it was a specific act of negligence by the band?
[/quote]

The venue will deny liability if it was caused by the band or equipment owned by the band.

Ignoring the finer points for a mo - if it was caused by anything the band did, or anything the band bought with them, OR anything the band did / altered / changed to the venue itself, then the band will find themselves in the firing line. Even if the band didn't do any of that the venue's insurers will try to pass the blame down the line. A band cannot afford to retain specialist insurance lawyers to resist.

Could be something simple - moving something at the venue without the venue's permission. For example the table layout might have been subject to a Risk Assessment for footfalls and access to emergency exits. Band moves table to a place that the Risk Assessment shows must remain clear - then you might have problems. Not to mention the fact the staff will deny they gave the band permission to move anything, even if they did!

Band members often don't realise that a Band is a legal partnership (unless it's actually been set up as a limited company) and so if the Guitarists amp falls on someone, the injured person can come after the entire band. The venue did not book 5 individuals - they booked the band as a unit.

Let's say the guitarist's gear did cause the nasty event. And let's say he has zero money. Rents a house. Cheap gear. 15 year old car. Earning minimum wage. Not really worth suing him.
Now let's say the bassist has a house with some equity in it, a nice car, and a bit of cash because he is handsome and successful.

The injured person can ignore the guitarist and come after the band as a whole - the award will be for joint and several liability. Meaning that even if only the bassist owns a house, the injured person will be able to sell that house from under him to recover his damages award - it's not really just against the bassist, it is against the band partnership. It just happens that only the bassist has any money.

Even if the bassist has been his usual responsible self and at the end of the show has packed up and gone home and is already in his bed when the nasty event happens - he is still a partner in the band and that means he is in the poo for the actions of his band mates.


And just for a bit of info...

Punter with broken wrist. Will be deemed a public liability claim.

Say about £3000 for the injury as per the Judicial College Guide for the Assessment of Personal injury damages
Then say he has a manual job and needs 2 months off work - call that another £2000 after tax.
Then the legal costs - for simple injury claims with a value of under £25,000 the legal costs that can be recovered from the bad guys are now very much limited - but after the compulsory independent medical expert report and other bits will still be about £6000

That's a total outlay of about £11,000 for a simple broken wrist.
If you haven't got insurance you'll also be paying your own lawyers to deal with the negotiations on top of that - and that is not subject to any fixed fee scheme. And you cannot get "no-win no-fee" for defending a claim as you've already lost by causing the nasty event.


Now lets look at the other end.

Same punter. Paralysed, neck down. Aged 30

Has 2 kids aged under 10.

Was earning £30,000.

Injury payment - not actually a lot in the scheme of things - about £600,000
Loss of earnings until retirement at 70. That's 40 years at £30,000 - £1,200,000
Alterations to the home - maybe having to buy a bungalow or putting a lift in. Say £250,000

Nursing care for 24 hour care. That is 3 specialist private nurses doing 8 hours each with salaries of £30,000. So 1 year would be £90,000 x 40 years £3,600,000. (And no the NHS does not have to provide it when there is a negligent party with adequate means to pay for it.)

We are well over £5.5 million and we haven't looked at future surgery needs, or simple inflation on the loss of earnings and nursing case, or the legal fees. In a paralysis case the claim will last between 5 and 10 years - simply because it takes that long for the Doctors to confirm the final status of the patient - so they can say whether there is hope for improvement or it is as good as it gets. The legal fees will be an easy £750,000 on top of that.


The wrist break is obviously far more common that the paralysis (thankfully!) - but the point is - can most bands even afford to deal with the wrist break?

I'd say no.

There's also another issue - even Wrist Break Man has to pay his rent and eat. He's not been able to. He may well lose his house because of the actions of others. Why should he?

From personal experience I know many people complain that someone has the audacity to come after them. "Ambulance chasing scum" etc - I have no sympathy whatsoever.
What about the "scum" who won't help people they have hurt, and refuse to accept they might be responsible?

If someone breaks your amp, you'd want them to replace it - putting you back into the same position as before. Chances are they could get the credit card out and replace it. If you break their arm then all they want is for you to put them back in the same position as before as well.

[TimR]

It's at that point you realise you didn't actually make any money doing the gig either.

[Dan Dare]

[quote name='fftc' timestamp='1504077225' post='3362453']
Just looked at MU membership.

Seems a bit expensive for a hobbyist.
[/quote]

? The basic rate of MU sub's works out at around a quid a week. Try getting decent PL insurance for that.

[uk_lefty]

I'm more worried about theft than damage though the old "my mate wants to have a go on your guitar" is often a fear. I don't trust my home insurance to cover it but have not yet looked in to instrument insurance.
I often look at expensive gear and think it would be great if I had time to play and nurture it at home or recording but I would be concerned about taking say a vintage fender to any gig just from the risk of my drummer knocking it off the stage in to a wall or whatever.
If I was genuinely worried about the security of a venue I think I'd be di'ing out of a very old zoom pedal and taking my MIM jazz bass which would be worth next to nothing second hand and has plenty of scars already, though I would be very annoyed of beer was spilled on the electrics or the neck was cracked by someone being an idiot.

[FinnDave]

[quote name='Dan Dare' timestamp='1504089028' post='3362558']
? The basic rate of MU sub's works out at around a quid a week. Try getting decent PL insurance for that.
[/quote]

The MU site says it costs £213 per year, that's about £4 a week by my reckoning.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1504087268' post='3362540']
The venue will deny liability...
[/quote]

Eloquently exposed, and doubtless pretty accurate, but I'm afraid I don't subscribe. I agree with the premise that he, her or those responsible for damage, loss or injury should take that responsibility on their shoulders (mine, if I was that person...). Where I do not agree is that someone who has committed no fault should pay, either directly nor indirectly. In your fictitious example, the hapless bass player, tucked up in bed when his luckless (or clumsy...) bandmate caused grave injury looses his home. This may be the law, but I'm not concerned so much by the law as by justice. Is it just that he be penalised for the actions of others..? I say 'No', and refuse to walk that path. I'll take full responsibility for my own actions; I'll not shoulder the burden of someone else's negligence. Solidarity, in the sense of paying NH insurance for the cover of all the population against misfortune is fine by me; 'betting' that I don't fall foul of an incident in which I have no part is not fair, and I won't (and don't...) do it. If I was the bass player in your story, I'd do my very best to not be implicated; if I was the perpetrator of the incident, I'd face the consequences, whatever they may be. I realise that Life (Reality, Pragmatics; call it what you will...) are against me in this stance, but I can be very stubborn when principles such as Justice (as seen through my eyes...) are at stake. It's only that folks go down the 'safe' route that these ambulance-chasers get a foot in the door, and the insurance industry relies on the law, rather than Justice, to even exist, in my view. I hold them in very dim esteem, as can be guessed from the above.