Bands tuning out of tune, why?

[markdavid]

One thing I have noticed more than once when learning bass parts is that on some recordings the songs are out of tune, not just the bass being slightly out I mean like all of the instruments, one glaring example of this is the Doors - Light my fire , I had to learn it for a band I was in and I actually had to edit the mp3 in Audacity as the song was out of tune enough that I could not play along with it in standard tuning, I suspect as the version I had to learn was only 3 minutes long that perhaps it was sped up or slowed down to be the right length for radio play.
I seem to also remember Peace sells by Megadeth beign a little out of tune.
Anyway, have you noticed any recordings where the whole band are way out of tune? What it the reasoning behind this? Is this an artifact from a time where people just weren't so concerned with being pitch perfect?

Edited September 14, 2017 by markdavid

[interpol52]

I've noticed this too and wondered the same thing. It's really frustrating.

[Twigman]

In the analogue tape days it happened all the time.
Often songs would be slowed down or sped up slightly at mix down thus rendering them 'out of tune'.....I know we've done it more than once back in the 80s


It was often done for various reasons:

1) it sounded better that way
2) It covered up a timing error
3) It was easier for the vocalist to sing 'in tune'

etc etc

Edited September 14, 2017 by Twigman

[ZilchWoolham]

I have to assume it's because the band all tuned to each other and not to, say, a tuning fork. It makes sense that this practice was more common before the days of cheap digital tuners. I've noticed an example of this myself. At least several songs, if not all songs, on Buzzcocks' "A Different Kind of Tension" are tuned to what seems a quarter note sharp of A=440. This makes it impossible to play along to the album unless you tune up yourself. But of course, you can't tell if you're just listening to it.

EDIT: Just saw Twigman's post and that does sound convincing too. He was there, after all!

Edited September 14, 2017 by ZilchWoolham

[roman_sub]

Sometimes people detune / change speed of mp3s they put on youtube... if it's the whole band, and original was recorded on tape, maybe the mp3 you hear was recorded when tape playback wasn't *quite* at the perfect speed.

I think Pantera de-tuned around 10 cents flat on purpose (can't remember exact number).

Another example is that I was looking at the multitracked session I did of a live orchestra performance - and these guys were as much as 24 cents sharp (against A440) by the end of the symphony, and they're highly trained pro's. However, most importantly, they were in tune relative to one another....

I've actually contemplated recording a full album tuned to A = 432Hz... just because I can!

No such thing as absolute pitch - and don't even get me started on the inherent tuning problems within Western equal temperament tuning! ;-)

Edited September 14, 2017 by roman_sub

[discreet]

[quote name='ZilchWoolham' timestamp='1505408914' post='3371734']
I have to assume it's because the band all tuned to each other and not to, say, a tuning fork. It makes sense that this practice was more common before the days of cheap digital tuners.
[/quote]

Yes. Back in the day (ahem) there was always a piano somewhere at the venue and we'd all tune to that. Obviously the chances of it being at concert pitch were slim, in fact, they were rarely in tune with themselves. At that time it was considered acceptable to come on stage, spend five minutes tuning up, mumbling and otherwise faffing about before starting the first number. No slick stage routine or any of that. Yes, I know.

[ZilchWoolham]

Yes, in the end it doesn't really matter, as long as you're in tune relative to each other.

A similar phenomenon is the fluctuation in tempo you'll find in most live performances, or in songs recorded without a click track. The shifts are too slow and slight to notice, but if you're trying to match, say, a recording of a rock song from the 70's to a drum machine, you're probably going to have a hard time.

[Twigman]

[quote name='ZilchWoolham' timestamp='1505409679' post='3371743']
but if you're trying to match, say, a recording of a rock song from the 70's to a drum machine, you're probably going to have a hard time.
[/quote]

In a modern DAW you can make a 'groove map' from a varying tempo track and trigger drum samples from it - it's not really a problem anymore with modern software and confusers

[Dood]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1505408552' post='3371731']
In the analogue tape days it happened all the time.
Often songs would be slowed down or sped up slightly at mix down thus rendering them 'out of tune'.....I know we've done it more than once back in the 80s


It was often done for various reasons:

1) it sounded better that way
2) It covered up a timing error
3) It was easier for the vocalist to sing 'in tune'

etc etc
[/quote]


It would also be down to the mix and mastering stages too.


A band may have had their album tracks recorded at a studio using magnetic tape machines. Which isn't a problem if that same machine and studio was used for mastering. The tapes would in many cases be taken to another studio to indeed be mastered and of course have the 'template' discs for vinyls cut. Often, the tape machines there would run at subtly different speeds. This would affect the final pitch of the recording. Sometimes there's only a slight difference, such as Queen's Another One Bites The Dust.

[phil.c60]

Classic example is "Baby Please Don't Go" by Them. It's halfway between E and F, and it is because they sped it up after it was recorded because it sounded better that way. Apparently.

[ZilchWoolham]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1505409793' post='3371749']
In a modern DAW you can make a 'groove map' from a varying tempo track and trigger drum samples from it - it's not really a problem anymore with modern software and confusers
[/quote]
Oh, I didn't know that. What a time to be alive.

[lowdown]

[quote name='roman_sub' timestamp='1505408942' post='3371735']
No such thing as absolute pitch
[/quote]

Absolute/perfect pitch, relative pitch and cloth ears all do exist.

[Guest Jecklin]

[quote name='roman_sub' timestamp='1505408942' post='3371735']

Another example is that I was looking at the multitracked session I did of a live orchestra performance - and these guys were as much as 24 cents sharp (against A440) by the end of the symphony, and they're highly trained pro's. However, most importantly, they were in tune relative to one another....

I've actually contemplated recording a full album tuned to A = 432Hz... just because I can!

No such thing as absolute pitch - and don't even get me started on the inherent tuning problems within Western equal temperament tuning! ;-)
[/quote]

Some nice points here - orchestral Instruments, especially woodwind, will play sharper as the ambient temperature increases. So the pitch will rise as a room and the instruments warm up.

Also to note some European orchestras tune to 442 and even 444 is becoming common again.

And yes I totally agree, absolute pitch is a non concept.
Modern baroque (oxymoron) instruments have A at 415 and I have just acquired a bassoon from when British orchestras tuned A to around 452 which stayed with brass bands until the 1960's.

[chris_b]

Records can vary from standard pitch because after recording someone has listened to the final mix - the band, producer, engineer, management, tea lady - and decided that it sounded better slightly faster or slower.

On several occasions I've heard guys say, "This is dragging, can we make it more lively?" The way they do that is to speed up the song.

[ambient]

I sometimes tune to A @ 432hz, I've used A @ 417hz, that was quite dark sounding (to me).

Like others have said, people tended to tune to each other, if the source tuning was out, then they'd all be out.

Edited September 15, 2017 by ambient

[lojo]

[quote name='roman_sub' timestamp='1505408942' post='3371735']
and don't even get me started on the inherent tuning problems within Western equal temperament tuning! ;-)
[/quote]

Oh please do , sounds interesting

[lowdown]

[quote name='Jecklin' timestamp='1505416722' post='3371836']
And yes I totally agree, absolute pitch is a non concept.
[/quote]

Why is it a non concept?

Edited September 15, 2017 by lowdown

[Dan Dare]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1505429429' post='3371933']
Records can vary from standard pitch because after recording someone has listened to the final mix - the band, producer, engineer, management, tea lady - and decided that it sounded better slightly faster or slower.

On several occasions I've heard guys say, "This is dragging, can we make it more lively?" The way they do that is to speed up the song.
[/quote]

Yep. You'd be surprised how many people, including those you would think would know, can't hear subtle pitch differences. Some years back, I was working at the old Virgin studios on the Goldhawk Road. A cutting engineer asked for my help. He had a master (this was back in vinyl days) which the band had rejected because it "didn't sound right". They and he couldn't say why. The band had given him a cassette tape of their album, which was how they wanted it. I asked him to play me the master tape and the cassette and set them up so I could A/B them. It was immediately obvious that the cassette was running fast and was playing a little sharp as a result (cassette machines were a bit notorious for not being pitch accurate). I pointed this out and the others in the room said they couldn't hear any difference. So I raised the varispeed on the master tape machine until they were in tune with each other and he cut the master from that. He later told me the band was happy with the result.

[artisan]

Black Sabbath Volume 4 is a perfect example of this,as I've worked out a couple of songs I noticed this very thing.

[Phil Starr]

Not just 'back in the day' try playing along with Rag'nBone Man's Human

[Mykesbass]

Dave Robinson of Stiff records would speed a lot of recording up. I've seen footage of Tracy Ullman saying how hard it was to keep up with the backing track to Breakaway.

[chris_b]

That's why so many US touring Soul and R&B acts (back in the day) would play their songs faster on the gig.

The theory is if you speed up the songs and they are more "exciting" to an audience.

I usually prefer to listen to the records but after a few beers, up tempo versions do get the audiences going.

[KevB]

I had 2 in the same set list for a past covers band. Stones - Jumpin Jack Flash and Cure - Friday I'm in Love. I think the former is out due to a badly tuned studio piano and the latter out due to band mucking about with varispeed.

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='artisan' timestamp='1505466310' post='3372071']
Black Sabbath Volume 4 is a perfect example of this,as I've worked out a couple of songs I noticed this very thing.
[/quote]

You sure it's not just Ozzy's singing?

[chris_b]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1505474815' post='3372173']
I had 2 in the same set list for a past covers band. Stones - Jumpin Jack Flash and Cure - Friday I'm in Love. I think the former is out due to a badly tuned studio piano . . . .
[/quote]

Pianos don't go out of tune or drop all the strings by the same amount. Many notes are multiple strings as well.

I've been in a few studios where the whole session was help up waiting for a tuner to come in and sort an out of tune piano.