Bands tuning out of tune, why?

[KevB]

It was just something that I'd read re Stones might not be true. Could be tape speed issue. The piano in theory would only have to be out on the note everyone took as the ref, eg if they banged out an E note from a single piano key and tuned first string of gtr to that then tune rest of guitar to that string then its all going to be 'out' but in tune with itself.

Edited September 15, 2017 by KevB

[skankdelvar]

Then there's the issue of bands deliberately tuning down a half step because of the belief that to do so enhances 'tone' (SRV) or to suit the singer.

IIRC, the Beatles did this on occasion which accounts for some of the frankly finger-tangling chords in the 'easy guitar' song books. Eb is an ugly little bugger when you try to play it as a open-ish chord up near the nut.

Also, AC/DC seem to have moved a quarter tone to suit Jonners' voice in the last few years. Most confusing...

Edited September 15, 2017 by skankdelvar

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1505432140' post='3371941']
I sometimes tune to A @ 432hz, I've used A @ 417hz, that was quite dark sounding (to me).

Like others have said, people tended to tune to each other, if the source tuning was out, then they'd all be out.


[/quote]

Concert A at 417Hz is almost exactly a semitone flat, which puts it (and you) into Nirvana territory IIRC. Might explain why it sounds a bit dark.

[ambient]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1505490092' post='3372357']


Concert A at 417Hz is almost exactly a semitone flat, which puts it (and you) into Nirvana territory IIRC. Might explain why it sounds a bit dark.
[/quote]

It's one of the solfeggio frequencies. Just something that interested me.

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1505455458' post='3371965']
Oh please do , sounds interesting
[/quote]

It's off, basically. Traditional Just Intonation preserves the harmonic series, while ET is a clever but ultimately compromised mathematical fudge to make things like transposition and modulation workable without doing too much damage to the pitch relationships (not to mention making - for example - keyboard instruments a whole lot easier to make and to play). If you want to know more, I wrote an article about it some years ago. It's buried somewhere in the Theory and Technique section as part of a series on the music of ancient Greece.

That said, most people seem able to live with ET tuning.

EDIT TO ADD: Just Intonation has it's own problems of course (try Googling 'wolf fifth' or 'Pythagorean comma'). Unless you're a real stickler for harmonic purity, Equal Temperament is much the better system.

Edited September 15, 2017 by leftybassman392

[lowdown]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1505490556' post='3372363']
If you want to know more, I wrote an article about it some years ago. It's buried somewhere in the Theory and Technique section as part of a series on the music of ancient Greece.
[/quote]

Yes, I remember reading that ancient Greece series, very good indeed.

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1505493170' post='3372388']
Yes, I remember reading that ancient Greece series, very good indeed.

[/quote]

Why thank you sir. The cheque's in the post.

Edited September 15, 2017 by leftybassman392

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Dan Dare' timestamp='1505465079' post='3372055']
Yep. You'd be surprised how many people, including those you would think would know, can't hear subtle pitch differences.
[/quote]

Well that would be 99.99% of people - apparently only one in ten thousand people have "perfect pitch" i.e. can recognise notes being in or out of tune without a reference pitch. So your one of the lucky ones.

[Kevin Dean]

My first record player played too fast & caused problems for myself when it came to working stuff out & turning up to band practice . I think warwick did a bass with frets all over the place for perfect pitch .

[Dan Dare]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1505511574' post='3372574']


Well that would be 99.99% of people - apparently only one in ten thousand people have "perfect pitch" i.e. can recognise notes being in or out of tune without a reference pitch. So your one of the lucky ones.
[/quote]

Wasn't quite what I meant. As it happens, I can tell you what note you are playing when I hear it (and I realise that's my good fortune), but that wasn't what I was talking about. I was referring to the fact that so many people are unable to hear the difference between two different notes that are close in pitch but not quite the same. So there is a reference - because you can compare each to the other.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Dan Dare

[Dan Dare]

Oh and talking of records being out of tune, have a listen to the flute solo on 'California Dreaming'. Toe curling.

[TimR]

As everyone has alluded to:

There's at least three reasons why it's done. It varies depending on circumstances. It's art, not science.

Just use your ears and retune your bass.

.

Edited September 16, 2017 by TimR

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1505554144' post='3372736']
Just use your ears and retune your bass.
[/quote]

.. or use a pitch altering gadget or program, my personal favourite is [url="https://www.ronimusic.com/"]https://www.ronimusic.com/[/url]. Any song I want to work on I usually create and save a pitch corrected mp3.

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1505489421' post='3372349']
Then there's the issue of bands deliberately tuning down a half step because of the belief that to do so enhances 'tone' (SRV) or to suit the singer.

[/quote]

I always thought SRV tuned down because he insisted on using .12 or .13 gauge strings on his Strat, which would have gone some way to alleviating the massive string tension (I've also heard that he moved down to .11s towards the end of his career so that he'd have some fingertips left by the end of a tour...)

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1505569863' post='3372921']
I always thought SRV tuned down because he insisted on using .12 or .13 gauge strings on his Strat, which would have gone some way to alleviating the massive string tension (I've also heard that he moved down to .11s towards the end of his career so that he'd have some fingertips left by the end of a tour...)
[/quote]

Maybe that too. Same outcome, I suppose

On reflection, SRV probably a bad example. Mind you, legions of Vaughan-abees have downtuned because [i]he[/i] did and claim that there's a tonal difference. It's probably all bollocks but if it makes people happy...

Edited September 16, 2017 by skankdelvar

[chris_b]

Tune down to Eb, use a heavier gauge of string and you get a beefier sound. Hendrix did it so do others.

[tonyquipment]

It's mostly down to taste and or equipment. The tapes recorded onto were not always consistent with speed. Same with records. YouTube has a lot of examples of tracks where people have corrected the pitch on them.

[ambient]

[quote name='tonyquipment' timestamp='1505588662' post='3373071']
It's mostly down to taste and or equipment. The tapes recorded onto were not always consistent with speed. Same with records. YouTube has a lot of examples of tracks where people have corrected the pitch on them.
[/quote]

This is something Steve Reich took advantage of in his tape phasing compositions. It's gonna rain being one example.

Edited September 16, 2017 by ambient

[alyctes]

I'm told that some artists, especially those well into their careers, find that the singer can't hit the high notes any more (or maybe just comfortably), and do the whole thing a semitone down.

[Spike Vincent]

I spent the early part of my musical career tuning up to " yeah that's close enough"

[DJpullchord]

Some bloke in the pub was trying to explain how pianos are tuned out of tune with the frequencies. Something to do with how the human ear hears stuff at the top end.
Weird.

[cytania]

To get back to Light My Fire by the Doors. This was mismastered back in the 60s and the mistake stuck around until it was corrected for the 40th Anniversary edition of the Doors first album.

Other speed/tuning challenged hits include Another One Bites The Dust by Queen and Friday I'm In Love by the Cure.

[cytania]

[quote name='DJpullchord' timestamp='1505644588' post='3373283']
Some bloke in the pub was trying to explain how pianos are tuned out of tune with the frequencies. Something to do with how the human ear hears stuff at the top end.
Weird.
[/quote]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_tuning

[Beer of the Bass]

Could it be something to do with optimising the track time for vinyl mastering? I remember reading that the average level and quality start to decline over 20-22 minutes per side. I cwn imagine playing with the tape speed to get the master in that range.

[Twigman]

[quote name='Spike Vincent' timestamp='1505643368' post='3373274']
I spent the early part of my musical career tuning up to " yeah that's close enough"
[/quote]

Every time we tune the sax at band practice/gigs the process ends with the player saying " that's good enough for jazz..."