Female singers / musicians / dancers and the attitudes of some male punters

[Daz39]

You are - by putting the onus of having to change or conform to reduce/avoid risk, you are essentially giving them the blame for something bad happening. There is no excuse for lewd comments or worse, none.

There's a discrete difference between this and one person knowingly testing cause and effect of a criminal offence. The first ought to cause more bother for the perpetrator, but normalisation of its effects, frequency and attitude means it doesn't. Until millions of people a year try to photograph NK military sites, and tens of millions of others say 'it doesn't really matter, does no harm,' 'what were they thinking, placing their installations in that wide valley in full view,' etc. then it's not a fair comparison.

And yes - however daft it might sound, you should not deserve or be asking to be robbed by walking about a rough part of town laden down with notes. That is exactly the sort of thinking that allows wannabe, impressionable people to think it's a suitable form of employment.

[Daz39]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1505917519' post='3375209']
I think the major thought process on this thread is that we all agree that these types of behaviour aren`t right, but we can all understand that they are unfortunately inevitable.
[/quote]

No - they are not inevitable. Saying they are only perpetuates the myth that they can't be stopped.

[Count Bassy]

Just to say it one more time:[b] I am NOT saying that this behaviour is acceptable. [/b]

[Daz39]

To clarify then: by saying the victims need to be more responsible, you are tacitly accepting this behaviour is unavoidable.

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='Daz39' timestamp='1505939327' post='3375415']
To clarify then: by saying the victims need to be more responsible, you are tacitly accepting this behaviour is unavoidable.
[/quote]
I'm saying that the world is not as perfect as we would like, and that this sort of behaviour happens. It's not right, just as mugging and rape and a million other things are not right, but it happens all the same. To a certain extent, in the world as it currently is, then these sort of behaviours will continue. Maybe in twenty or thirty years time things will be better, but in the mean time people who feel that they may be victims of any of the above can take their own action and, if possible, avoid the risky situation.

To be honest there are far worse things going on in the world (e.g. Rape and Mugging) than one sex shouting lewd comments at the other sex, and (to my mind) these need to be addressed first.

You've got to play with the cards you have, not the cards you wish you had.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Count Bassy

[TimR]

Well, not quite.

There's not a lot I can do about all the rapes and muggings in the world that are going on.

I can have a word with the idiot standing next to me at a show there and then and maybe make them think twice next time.

I'm fairly sure I shouldn't have to wait until all the rapes and muggings have been stopped first before I approach him.

[steantval]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1505991499' post='3375681']
Well, not quite.

There's not a lot I can do about all the rapes and muggings in the world that are going on.

I can have a word with the idiot standing next to me at a show there and then and maybe make them think twice next time.


I'm fairly sure I shouldn't have to wait until all the rapes and muggings have been stopped first before I approach him.
[/quote]

Having a word with the idiot, the idiot may take offence and give you a bloody nose, just not worth the possible risk.

[dannybuoy]

If I played bass in my pants and overheard a female audience member pointing at me and saying "Phwoar, I wouldn't mind 'im fingering me G string", I would be rather flattered.

[fftc]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1505947857' post='3375497']
To a certain extent, in the world as it currently is, then these sort of behaviours will continue. Maybe in twenty or thirty years time things will be better,
[/quote]

Not if people who agree that it is unacceptable do nothing about it. We all have a role to play in stopping this kind of crap. It doesn't necessarily mean challenging 20 drunken yobs, but workmates, relatives etc can be informed their behaviour is sub standard quite safely in general.

And it seems fairly clear to me that there is a link between sexual harassment, and sexual assaults and rape. It all starts with a lack of respect.

[TimR]

[quote name='steantval' timestamp='1506011160' post='3375896']


Having a word with the idiot, the idiot may take offence and give you a bloody nose, just not worth the possible risk.
[/quote]

Or he may shuffle about looking at his feet uncomfortably and say sorry?

[Dan Dare]

[quote name='bazztard' timestamp='1505659632' post='3373390']
those dancers could've worn long skirts or pants if they didn't want people ogling them, seriously. they show their ass cheeks and dance sexy, how could they possibly complain. If you're gonna show me, I'm gonna look. If you don't want me looking, don't show me.

all dancers now dance like strippers.
[/quote]

Stone me, mate. You're up to date, aren't you?

[Dan Dare]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1505824615' post='3374561']


Indeed. Female bassists are just queuing up to join BassChat... not.
[/quote]

Yeah. A lot of bassists do seem to be somewhere along the spectrum.

[TimR]

[quote name='Dan Dare' timestamp='1506025480' post='3376033']


Yeah. A lot of bassists do seem to be somewhere along the spectrum.
[/quote]

It's Internet forums. Mumsnet is just as bad.

[Dan Dare]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1506027894' post='3376056']


It's Internet forums. Mumsnet is just as bad.
[/quote]

I'll take your word for it. Not being a mum, I've never looked at it. Is it really filled with "She asked for it. She was wearing a short skirt" type comments?

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1505991499' post='3375681']
Well, not quite.

There's not a lot I can do about all the rapes and muggings in the world that are going on.

I can have a word with the idiot standing next to me at a show there and then and maybe make them think twice next time.

I'm fairly sure I shouldn't have to wait until all the rapes and muggings have been stopped first before I approach him.
[/quote]

Tim,

I have never said we shouldn't try to change this behaviour, and pointing the error of their ways to an idiot standing next to you is a good thing, and needs to be done.

Let me know when you have stood next to all the lewd comment shouters, rapists and muggers in the world, and I'll the venture out naked with wads of cash in every orifice. Until then however I'll continue to avoid, or at least not aggravate, what seem risky or unpleasant situations and I'd advise others to to the same.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1506039140' post='3376113']
Tim,

I have never said we shouldn't try to change this behaviour, and pointing the error of their ways to an idiot standing next to you is a good thing, and needs to be done.

Let me know when you have stood next to all the lewd comment shouters, rapists and muggers in the world, and I'll the venture out naked with wads of cash in every orifice. Until then however I'll continue to avoid, or at least not aggravate, what seem risky or unpleasant situations and I'd advise others to to the same.
[/quote]

I hope they don't take your advice, or nothing will ever change.

Things don't change by themselves. Someone changes them.

Edited September 22, 2017 by mcnach

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1506067242' post='3376179']
I hope they don't take your advice, or nothing will ever change.

Things don't change by themselves. Someone changes them.
[/quote]

Hence the first sentence of my reply to TimR.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Count Bassy

[TimR]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1506086547' post='3376385']


Hence the first sentence of my reply to TimR.
[/quote]

It's a bit of a confusing reply.

If I come across someone being mugged or raped I'm sure I would make a bit of noise or at least call the police. I'm not totally sure those activities are even in the same league. Having a word with someone who is getting a bit rowdy is a different ball game to confronting a rapist or a mugger. I've had to have words with people at gigs. Usually they look guilty and say sorry. If you don't nip it in the bud they get more and more rowdy and end up pulling your gear over.

I'm not a big guy but I've spoken to people on the train whose actions have been making people feel uncomfortable and they've apologised and calmed down. There are ways of approaching people that are non-confrontational and there are ways of escaping situations when they start to become confrontational.

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1506087303' post='3376398']
It's a bit of a confusing reply.

If I come across someone being mugged or raped I'm sure I would make a bit of noise or at least call the police. I'm not totally sure those activities are even in the same league. Having a word with someone who is getting a bit rowdy is a different ball game to confronting a rapist or a mugger. I've had to have words with people at gigs. Usually they look guilty and say sorry. If you don't nip it in the bud they get more and more rowdy and end up pulling your gear over.

I'm not a big guy but I've spoken to people on the train whose actions have been making people feel uncomfortable and they've apologised and calmed down. There are ways of approaching people that are non-confrontational and there are ways of escaping situations when they start to become confrontational.
[/quote]

Ah, I might see where the confusion is.

When I say I'd avoid the risky situation I was not referring to the act of reprimanding the person making the lewd remarks, or trying to assist if someone is being attacked; I think basic human instinct to help would kick in there, especially if someone was being attacked. I certainly hope that I would dive in to help (I've never been tested in that respect). To be perfectly honest, to my own detriment, I don't know if I'd intervene if it was just lewd remarks as I wouldn't see it as being any danger to anybody (just a bit offensive) - depends on how lewd they were I suppose.

I was referring to the act of the potential victim putting themselves into risky situations in the first place. i.e. the hypothetical act of walking down the street with money hanging out of pockets or, back to the original post subject, dancing on the stage in an alluring manner if you'd be upset by lewd remarks.

These things should not happen and are not acceptable but,[i] as the potential target/victim[/i], you can either wait for society to change and take the risk in the meantime, or you can take immediately effective action and avoid the potentially dangerous or upsetting scenario.

Hence my original comment on this thread that if you're going to be upset by lewd comments then being a stage dancer (in a rough end establishment) seems to be a strange career choice.

Hope this makes my position clear (though I suspect it hasn't).

Edited September 22, 2017 by Count Bassy

[mikel]

[quote name='Daz39' timestamp='1505917664' post='3375211']
No - they are not inevitable. Saying they are only perpetuates the myth that they can't be stopped.
[/quote]

The guys who did the shouting and whistling were obviously morons, that's a given, but I would like to hear how the behavior of the few can be stopped? Given the complexity and diversity of humans, and the different ways they think. I presume it would be more complex than simply saying "Hey you, that's not acceptable" expecting the perpitrators to say "You know what, you are right, I will stop it forthwith." There always has been and always will be a few idiots who don't conform, its human nature. What is normal and acceptable for one is disgusting to another. On there own these people are usually as quiet a lambs. Its the pack mentality.

[fftc]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1506088816' post='3376408']
Hence my original comment on this thread that if you're going to be upset by lewd comments then being a stage dancer (in a rough end establishment) seems to be a strange career choice.
[/quote]

So let's assume that you like to play bass and you like to gig. Say I go to your gig and I think you are rubbish.
Would you prefer it if I shouted offensive, obnoxious and possibly even threatening abuse at you to the effect that you are rubbish, or would you prefer I kept my own council?

I'm sure most folk would prefer the latter. Doesn't mean you shouldn't gig. Doesn't mean I shouldn't think you're crap. But I should show a level of respect towards you as a fellow human being. If I fail to do that then I should be pulled up for it. What's different about female dancers?

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='fftc' timestamp='1506097170' post='3376487']
So let's assume that you like to play bass and you like to gig. Say I go to your gig and I think you are rubbish.
Would you prefer it if I shouted offensive, obnoxious and possibly even threatening abuse at you to the effect that you are rubbish, or would you prefer I kept my own council?

I'm sure most folk would prefer the latter. Doesn't mean you shouldn't gig. Doesn't mean I shouldn't think you're crap. But I should show a level of respect towards you as a fellow human being. If I fail to do that then I should be pulled up for it. What's different about female dancers?
[/quote]

Of course I would prefer you not to shout it out (perhaps slip me a card with the number of a good teacher).

I'm saying that if I regularly got abuse saying I was crap and [i]if it upset me enough[/i] then yes, I might well decide to not play that sort of gig again, or give up altogether. If I am a crap player (actually I'm really really average) but want to really carry on playing then I'd have to accept that I was going to get some abuse for being crap. It would be pointless carrying on doing it and then whinging that I was getting abuse. I'd either have to:

A: Get better
B: Accept the abuse and just get on with it
C: Stop doing it.


I repeat again, please take note everybody. I've said it several times already in the thread, but no one seems to have noticed:

[b]I AM NOT SAYING THIS SORT OF BEHAVIOUR IS ACCEPTABLE[/b], but it happens in the real world. By all means try to change it, but in the mean time make your decisions based on how the world is, not how you'd like it to be.

Re the dancers: I have (I think) deliberately avoided mentioning the gender of the performer. One of the worse examples I have seen was a documentary about a certain type of club on "Ladies Night", and I didn't notice anyone trying to stop them shouting out their base desires.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1506086547' post='3376385']
Hence the first sentence of my reply to TimR.
[/quote]


Your first sentence said that it needs to be done, but then the next paragraph pretty much says "but let others do it, not me". Which is an attitude I can completely understand, but it's not a productive one. So I hope there's more doers and waiters. That's all.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1506088816' post='3376408']
Ah, I might see where the confusion is.

When I say I'd avoid the risky situation I was not referring to the act of reprimanding the person making the lewd remarks, or trying to assist if someone is being attacked; I think basic human instinct to help would kick in there, especially if someone was being attacked. I certainly hope that I would dive in to help (I've never been tested in that respect). To be perfectly honest, to my own detriment, I don't know if I'd intervene if it was just lewd remarks as I wouldn't see it as being any danger to anybody (just a bit offensive) - depends on how lewd they were I suppose.

I was referring to the act of the potential victim putting themselves into risky situations in the first place. i.e. the hypothetical act of walking down the street with money hanging out of pockets or, back to the original post subject, dancing on the stage in an alluring manner if you'd be upset by lewd remarks.

These things should not happen and are not acceptable but,[i] as the potential target/victim[/i], you can either wait for society to change and take the risk in the meantime, or you can take immediately effective action and avoid the potentially dangerous or upsetting scenario.

Hence my original comment on this thread that if you're going to be upset by lewd comments then being a stage dancer (in a rough end establishment) seems to be a strange career choice.

Hope this makes my position clear (though I suspect it hasn't).
[/quote]


I suspect we agree more than it looks... but it gets dense here at times

[TimR]

I occasionally play at a pub where 50+ year old women come into the stage area and thrust their drunken bodies up against me while I'm trying to play.

It's not particularly unpleasant, more distracting but it makes playing quite difficult.

If the situation were reversed there would be a riot.

When I was 17, I worked in a packing factory, the women there were absolute animals. Again, if you've got a strong enough personality it won't affect you.

Not everyone has a strong confident personality...

You'll quickly get to a point where the entertainment is dictated by the morons as decent bands won't play there.

So, ignore them and say nothing and wonder why the quality of bands starts to slide in your local...