Female singers / musicians / dancers and the attitudes of some male punters

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1505685240' post='3373605']
I wasn't too impressed by the pick t-shirts and white trousers the male members were wearing .
[/quote]

Well, that's the band uniform, I suppose.

Big mistake by the front-man, though, going for a restrained 'baby pink' against the vibrant fuchsia sported by the rest of the band. Should have done it the other way round. Too late now. Also, should shell out for matching shades. Mostly Aviators but at least one pair of Wayfarers sticking out like the proverbial.

Anyway, they make people happy and that's what counts.

[bazzbass]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1505665687' post='3373442']
I just had to check what year we were in.

Are you for real?

The dancer were wearing costumes. Looking is one thing, shouting lewd comments and whistling is something totally different. It's called respect, having respect for another persons feelings, not making them feel uncomfortable.
[/quote]

it is 2017, I thought we were past using women as sex objects. So why are they wearing undies dancing sexy? aren't there better roles for women in rock apart from looking sexy and dancing like a stripper?
Like maybe women musicians and singers? Do feminists think it ok for a band to have sexy female dancers? what year do YOU live in? are we back to Benny Hill dancers days?

[Silvia Bluejay]

You're going off topic. What we are talking about here is whether it's acceptable for dancers, or other performers, to be harassed for the way they look while they work, despite having no choice in the matter. The answer is no, and there's absolutely no need to mention the F-word (Feminist), as the problem isn't confined to female performers.

[Happy Jack]

Way back in the dim and distant past (the 70s) I can easily remember rape cases being dismissed in pub chat because the victim had the nerve to go out wearing a mini-skirt ... clearly "she was asking for it". That was the phrase that was used.

I can remember young guys my aged getting beaten up in Shepherds Bush for wearing a Chelsea scarf ... "serves them right, what did they expect?". That was the phrase that was used.

I can remember the Black & White Minstrels on TV, and the TV show The Comedians being laden with nig-nog jokes, and talking about going down to the Paki shop ... "we didn't mean anything by it". That was the phrase that was used.

Getting older has few advantages, but one of them is that we seem to live in a better place than we were in then.

Stupid people have always existed and always will exist, but I suppose we can live in hope that they will die off. Not all of them are men, but men do rather seem to be the source of most of this stomach-turning aggression.

[ambient]

[quote name='bazztard' timestamp='1505706121' post='3373641']
it is 2017, I thought we were past using women as sex objects. So why are they wearing undies dancing sexy? aren't there better roles for women in rock apart from looking sexy and dancing like a stripper?
Like maybe women musicians and singers? Do feminists think it ok for a band to have sexy female dancers? what year do YOU live in? are we back to Benny Hill dancers days?
[/quote]

This was an 80s tribute thing. Unfortunately we're still very a long way off women being judged by their abilities and talent, rather than on the way they look or dress. You only need look at comments made about TV presenters. Both Mary Beard and Clare Balding have had comments made about their appearance.

The dancers here were given the costumes to wear at the event, they [u][b]shouldn't[/b][/u] have to put up with lewd remarks and whistling.

Edited September 18, 2017 by ambient

[Daz39]

Just when you mistakenly think society has progressed sufficiently for us to be worthy of meeting our interstellar neighbours...
It's so annoying and frustrating that people think this sort of behaviour is still acceptable - so much intolerable behaviour is completely normalised - I despair of what it will take to shift this mindset.

[TimR]

Dancers and acrobats have been wearing leotards for centuries.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leotard

[lowdown]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1505746106' post='3373954']
Dancers and acrobats have been wearing leotards for centuries.

[url="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leotard"]https://en.m.wikiped...rg/wiki/Leotard[/url]
[/quote]

Yes, makes for ease of movement.

My wife was a professional dancer in the 80's and 90's. (TV and Theatre).
She said you were either trussed up in Mary Poppins costumes in panto, through to raunchy, skimpy, funky costumes/dresses, where it was easier to move and dance.
Most of the time because of the music volume, she couldn't hear audiences. Although, strangely enough in Panto when the girls would enter the stage dressed as villagers,
dads and teenage boys would wolf whistle and shout out sexist remarks. that amused her a lot, being a family show.

I did quite a few the CSE forces shows around the world. You would get a hundred or so, drunken junior rank personal whistling, shouting and getting rowdy in a small venue, you would have thought that would be something to scare or upset the girls, but on the tours, the girls just seemed to have taken it in their stride otherwise they wouldn't have continued to do the shows... Usually in the mess afterwards, when we were being hosted, the same (earlier) seemingly animals, were then usually perfect gents with the girls.
On the other hand I have done theatre tours through Europe that were based on The Moulin Rouge and The Folies Bergere productions/reviews (Topless & minimal clothing), and guys were very timid. So maybe it's not the costumes ? I mean, do you get the same behaviour the OP is talking about on the beach, when girls are wearing bikinis ?

But of course these days, it is wrong (always has been I suppose). But don't get too carried away about a failing society, after all, it's a very small number of Clowns who behave in this way.

Edited September 18, 2017 by lowdown

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1505718072' post='3373671']
You're going off topic. What we are talking about here is whether it's acceptable for dancers, or other performers, to be harassed for the way they look while they work, despite having no choice in the matter. The answer is no, and there's absolutely no need to mention the F-word (Feminist), as the problem isn't confined to female performers.
[/quote]

However, if someone has strong objections to being ogled or having lewd comments made, then becoming a dancer where they have to wear what they're told would seem to be a strange career choice.

As with lots of these things there is always the option to say no.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Count Bassy

[mcnach]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1505758754' post='3374120']
However, if someone has strong objections to being ogled or having lewd comments made, then becoming a dancer where they have to wear what they're told would seem to be a strange career choice.

As with lots of these things there is always the option to say no.
[/quote]

If you become a prostitute, it would not be strange that some day you come across a customer who is a little rough or even violent in some way. It goes with the territory. It doesn't make it right 'though. Does it?
And again... the objection is not about being 'ogled'...

This thread is depressing with some of the attitudes on display and justifications being made.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1505817626' post='3374477']
... the objection is not about being 'ogled'...
[/quote]

Quite a few posters in here seem to have equated the wolf whistling and "smutty comments" with simply looking. Looking at/watching the dancers is fine. Whistling and making smutty comments is unacceptable, surely?

[TimR]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1505818241' post='3374487']


Quite a few posters in here seem to have equated the wolf whistling and "smutty comments" with simply looking. Looking at/watching the dancers is fine. Whistling and making smutty comments is unacceptable, surely?
[/quote]

Entirely depends on context and on the nature of the performance.

In this situation, it's not acceptable. There's obviously a few people around who can't draw the distinction and will be polarised either one way or the other.

Plus it's the internet, it's either right or it's wrong, there's never any in-between. .

[Dood]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1505817626' post='3374477']

This thread is depressing with some of the attitudes on display and justifications being made.
[/quote]

Indeed. Female bassists are just queuing up to join BassChat... not.

[Skol303]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1505758754' post='3374120']
However, if someone has strong objections to [b]being ogled or having lewd comments made[/b], then becoming a dancer where they have to wear what they're told would seem to be a strange career choice.

As with lots of these things there is always the option to say no.
[/quote]

You're placing the responsibility for socially acceptable behaviour on the dancers and not the audience. That's your fundamental mistake, if you don't mind me saying.

It's the responsibility of the audience - of society in general - to behave itself. Lewd comments are, by definition, lewd: [i]"crude and offensive in a sexual way."[/i] The wrongness in this situation starts and ends there.

[Les]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1505824615' post='3374561']
Indeed. Female bassists are just queuing up to join BassChat... not.
[/quote]

That would be their loss, it's good forum, well moderated and extremely useful information wise.

Whilst I agree on the smutty comments in the OP being unnecessary and downright rude I can't recall any of our lady members being disrespected or treated
as anything other than fellow bass players.

Think we should maybe give our female members a bit of credit for being able to deal what some of us are rightly miffed about, after all it isn't all men behaving that way.

Les

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1505817626' post='3374477']
If you become a prostitute, it would not be strange that some day you come across a customer who is a little rough or even violent in some way. It goes with the territory. It doesn't make it right 'though. Does it?
And again... the objection is not about being 'ogled'...

This thread is depressing with some of the attitudes on display and justifications being made.
[/quote]

No it doesn't make it right, but if you know that sort of thing is likely to happen why not choose another career? Similarly if you join the army you can't really complain if someone starts shooting at you, if you're a coal miner then you're going to get dirty. If a dancer of a certain kind dress up in provocative clothes and gyrate about then it is generally done for a specific reason, which is to stimulate the opposite (or same) sex. If you're not happy with that then find something else to do.

In an ideal world we would all be able to walk around with rolls of cash sticking out of every pocket and have no fear of being mugged.
You could still still do it and complain every time you're mugged, and wait for the world to change, or you could simply be a bit more discreet.

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1505824845' post='3374564']
You're placing the responsibility for socially acceptable behaviour on the dancers and not the audience. That's your fundamental mistake, if you don't mind me saying.

It's the responsibility of the audience - of society in general - to behave itself. Lewd comments are, by definition, lewd: [i]"crude and offensive in a sexual way."[/i] The wrongness in this situation starts and ends there.
[/quote]

I don't mind you saying, but I disagree with you. See my response above.

[Count Bassy]

By the way, I'm not defending this type of behaviour. I would be pretty annoyed to see it going on myself. I just query why people put themselves in that situation when they are upset by it.

[Daz39]

Because you're victim blaming and normalising the continuation of these attitudes.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1505852508' post='3374820']
No it doesn't make it right, but if you know that sort of thing is likely to happen why not choose another career? Similarly if you join the army you can't really complain if someone starts shooting at you, if you're a coal miner then you're going to get dirty. If a dancer of a certain kind dress up in provocative clothes and gyrate about then it is generally done for a specific reason, which is to stimulate the opposite (or same) sex. If you're not happy with that then find something else to do.

In an ideal world we would all be able to walk around with rolls of cash sticking out of every pocket and have no fear of being mugged.
You could still still do it and complain every time you're mugged, and wait for the world to change, or you could simply be a bit more discreet.
[/quote]


I'm not even going to respond to that now.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Daz39' timestamp='1505853609' post='3374838']
Because you're victim blaming and normalising the continuation of these attitudes.
[/quote]

Thank you. You said it concisely and much nicer than I could.

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='Daz39' timestamp='1505853609' post='3374838']
Because you're victim blaming and normalising the continuation of these attitudes.
[/quote]

So if I packed my pockets with notes and walked through a rough part of town and got mugged, there wouldn't be a small part of you that thought "stupid twat, what did he think was going to happen?"?

If you can honestly say no, then you have my admiration.

[Count Bassy]

I am not blaming the 'victim'. I am saying that one - anyone - should avoid situations that they know to be risky, unless they're happy with that risk.
For example I decided against going to North Korea to photograph military installations for my holidays this year.

In an ideal world it wouldn't be necessary.

[Happy Jack]

Whilst I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment, I love the way you expressed it.

[Lozz196]

I think the major thought process on this thread is that we all agree that these types of behaviour aren`t right, but we can all understand that they are unfortunately inevitable.