Lightweight conversion?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='324972' date='Nov 8 2008, 08:24 PM']p.s. Anyone know the weight of a 'Big Deep One'?[/quote]

It's probably about 40lbs but I wouldn't recommend it as a standalone cab unless you solely play reggae. The more full-range speaker in The Compact will do a far better job for 99% of players and the unEQ'd bottom end is likely to be similar to the small Trace 15" but it'll handle more power down there (and thus you can easily add fatness with EQ without mud/boom/farting occurring).

Alex

[Mr.T]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='324988' date='Nov 8 2008, 08:54 PM']The Compact will do a far better job for 99% of players and the unEQ'd bottom end is likely to be similar to the small Trace 15" but it'll handle more power down there (and thus you can easily add fatness with EQ without mud/boom/farting occurring).

Alex[/quote]

Would one of these 'Compacts' take the place of my two cabs?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='325233' date='Nov 9 2008, 12:22 PM']Would one of these 'Compacts' take the place of my two cabs?[/quote]

With your current amp it depends on how loud you play. You do have a good onboard compressor and those old TE heads are notably loud for their power rating so it certainly won't be quiet! But with a more powerful amp then it should match them in terms of max SPL.

Alex

[Mr.T]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='325238' date='Nov 9 2008, 12:36 PM']With your current amp it depends on how loud you play. You do have a good onboard compressor and those old TE heads are notably loud for their power rating so it certainly won't be quiet! But with a more powerful amp then it should match them in terms of max SPL.

Alex[/quote]

I rarely go past '2' on the output stage of the amp.

... So is that a "yes"?
As I have said earlier, I don't want to compromise my current sound quality by 'going light'.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='325242' date='Nov 9 2008, 12:52 PM']I rarely go past '2' on the output stage of the amp.

... So is that a "yes"?
As I have said earlier, I don't want to compromise my current sound quality by 'going light'.[/quote]

Still hard to give a concrete answer because some heads have really crazy gain staging so 2/10 could actually be using full power on loud notes - unlikely but possible... My gut feeling is that you're likely to be just fine - I'm willing to gamble my postage costs on it!

Alex

[Mr.T]

Update....

We had a rehearsal last night and I decided to just take the 1 x 15... (Trace 1153).
I left my amp on its 'usual' gig settings.

I seemed to be loud enough, but with nothing in reserve... when I turned the amp up a bit the speaker started to sound farty!
My overall sound was also 'thin'.

I also mentioned to my guitarist that I am looking to go lightweight and he said "Why mess with your sound... it is great the way it is".
(A guitarist complimenting a bass sound... what a loving band I have!!).

Anyway,
So where am I with this?

I still would like lighter cabs, but...
I need a lot more volume/warmth than my current 1 x 15 can offer.

Whatever I replace my Trace cabs with MUST be veratile and MUST sound at least as good, i.e:
Big, loud, warm when I want warm, toppy when I want toppy, etc.

???

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='339262' date='Nov 28 2008, 09:18 AM']I seemed to be loud enough, but with nothing in reserve... when I turned the amp up a bit the speaker started to sound farty! My overall sound was also 'thin'.[/quote]

I suspect you're pushing the speaker beyond Xmax hence the thinner sound and then as you go further beyond you're getting the farting sounds - however when that happens I suspect the amp is also running out of power and clipping a bit. So you don't have enough speaker power handling and you also don't have enough amp power.

The Compact could handle all the power from your amp but hard to say if it would be loud enough. Two Compacts would definitely be loud enough. If I was looking to go lightweight though I'd aim to get as much SPL from each cab as possible, so I could use just one cab most or all of the time, which requires a more powerful amp (~300W).

Alex

[gary mac]

I was recently in the same predicament as you.

Loved my Trace rig, which consisted of 2 x 10" cab and 300 watt 1 x 15" combo. but every time I gigged with it I would spend the next few days in serious pain and with a hot water bottle strapped to my lower back.

After a visit to the Bass Merchant to try out some light weight alternatives I ended up with a Genz Benz shuttle 6 and two Mark Bass cabs.

No more back problems.

Plenty of volume, but I have to say that I did prefer the sound of my Trace.

Having said that though, I have only gigged the new rig twice to date, so maybe I just haven't quite got it right yet.

[Mr.T]

[quote name='gary mac' post='339293' date='Nov 28 2008, 09:51 AM']Loved my Trace rig, which consisted of 2 x 10" cab and 300 watt 1 x 15" combo... I ended up with a Genz Benz shuttle 6 and two Mark Bass cabs.
Plenty of volume, but I have to say that I did prefer the sound of my Trace.[/quote]

This is my concern!

I could spend my hard earned cash and end up with not so good a sound.
And after all 'sounding good' is what playing the bass is all about.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='339359' date='Nov 28 2008, 10:41 AM']I could spend my hard earned cash and end up with not so good a sound. And after all 'sounding good' is what playing the bass is all about.[/quote]

Quite right!

If you go lightweight but stay with a rig of similar size (and the same head) then you can have great tone and loudness. If you go for a smaller lightweight rig then you'll need more power to get that tone and loudness and you'll have to be very careful in your choice of speakers to ensure they can move enough air to get that fat tone at high SPL.

Try to skimp on either the cabs or the amp and going lightweight could also mean lightweight tone!

Alex

[Mr.T]

So...

It sounds like you are saying 'big but light'.

Suggestions?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='339396' date='Nov 28 2008, 11:10 AM']It sounds like you are saying 'big but light'.[/quote]

Either 'big but light' or get a new amp as well as new cabs.

My suggestions:

SMX250 into The Vintage
SMX250 into The Compact x2
Hartke LH500 into The Compact
Markbass LMII into The Compact

The Vintage is a BIG cab so if you have a bad back I'd be wary of it - it's light for its side but it's not much lighter than your 1x15" and it's quite a lot more cumbersome. If one of The Compacts sounds great to you but just doesn't go loud enough then try it with a more powerful head and if you can't find a more powerful head that you like the sound of then add a second cab.

I've seen the LH500 for about £200 so for your budget you could have a pretty awesome rig, ignoring what you get back from selling your current (rather nice despite the weight) gear.

Alex

[stevie]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='339484' date='Nov 28 2008, 12:06 PM']Either 'big but light' or get a new amp as well as new cabs.

My suggestions:

SMX250 into The Vintage
SMX250 into The Compact x2
Hartke LH500 into The Compact
Markbass LMII into The Compact

The Vintage is a BIG cab so if you have a bad back I'd be wary of it - it's light for its side but it's not much lighter than your 1x15" and it's quite a lot more cumbersome. If one of The Compacts sounds great to you but just doesn't go loud enough then try it with a more powerful head and if you can't find a more powerful head that you like the sound of then add a second cab.

I've seen the LH500 for about £200 so for your budget you could have a pretty awesome rig, ignoring what you get back from selling your current (rather nice despite the weight) gear.

Alex[/quote]

Anyone else see the similarity of this and spam?

Edited November 28, 2008 by stevie

[redstriper]

I've been reading this topic with interest, having recently been through a similar situation, so I thought I'd let you know my story so far -

I have a bad back and wanted to reduce the weight of my rig which was an old Trace Elliot 15" AH 150 watt combo, sometimes used with a heavy old Ashdown 12" extension cab.

I tried a lot of new amps and cabs, even buying a few and returning them because I couldn't get 'my' sound from them.

The 1st thing I did was to separate the amp from the combo, which left me with 2 quite heavy boxes instead of one stupidly heavy one.
Then I replaced the driver in the combo cab for an Eminence kappalite 3015 LF which is much lighter than the old Fane and goes louder and deeper.
I then realised that to get the best from the new speaker, I needed a more powerful amp.
After trying loads of amps, I bought a Hartke LH1000 online without trying it and while it was incredibly loud, it didn't have 'my' sound so I returned it for a refund.
I then tried a friends little mark 11 and finally found 'my' sound only louder and lighter, so I bought one on ebay.
Next, I bought 2 very reasonably priced speaker cabs from another basschatter with the idea that I would try them and if they didn't work out, I could sell them on.
One was an Ashdown mag 115 deep which sounded great and weighed only 20 kilos, but wasn't loud enough.
I replaced the blueline driver with my kappalite and bingo - sorted for a lightweight 15" cab for £150 all in.
The other cab I bought was a Hartke 2 x 10 traveller, which is small, easy to carry and also about 20 kilos.
I didn't really take to the sound of the aluminium drivers and I bought 2 used ashdown blueline drivers and fitted them instead.
This cab has now cost £100 and with the Ashdown/Eminence 15 cab I get 'my' sound with plenty of volume without breaking my back for £250.
The LM11 was £350, so the whole rig cost £600 and it does the job, although it's not ultra lightweight I can manage it without help.
I only take one cab to practises and small gigs and use both for the bigger venues.

My solution came after months of trying loads of amps and cabs, many of which sounded great to other people's ears, but didn't have 'my' sound.

My advice to you is to try as much gear as you can, buy second hand or make sure you can get a refund if buying new.

To be more specific, I would buy ezbass's Ashdown 2 x 10 for a start and sell your Trace 2 x 10, that way you are immediately reducing the heaviest part of your rig for very little cost and old Trace cabs usually do very well on ebay.
Next, I'd buy a lightweight 15 driver (Eminence kappalite 3015) and either put it in your trace cab to reduce it's weight, or look out for a secondhand lighter cab and put it in that.
Or, try Alex's compact if you can afford it - I would have done that if I'd had enough dosh and I still plan to replace the Ashdown cab with one when funds allow.

You could keep the Trace amp and try it with these cabs, but to get the best from them or to be able to use just one, I think you might need more power.
I would recommend the Hartke LH500 if you play rock music - it's got balls and should get more from your speakers than the Trace.
If you want a smoother sound with less edge go for the Markbass LM11, it's twice the price but less than half the weight.

Well, that's my 10 bob's worth and it's only my experience, sound is absolutely subjective and you have to trust your own ears and follow your heart to get it right.
The problem is, you already have 'your' sound and finding it again can be hard work, but your back will thank you for it.

[Mr.T]

Redstriper...
Thanks for your comments. It sounds like you have already been where I am going!
I went through lots of changes many years ago before finding my ideal bass (Status Empathy) which I have now had for almost 20 years.
The chopping and changing I did cost me lots of cash, as I would try a bass out in a music shop where it might sound great... only to gig it and not be happy.
Soon after joining my first 'proper' gigging band I just went to the bass centre in London and bought, what was then, the best combo money could buy... Trace Elliot. I have been using Trace gear ever since!
I didn't think that I would ever need to look elsewhere at amplification.

I don't want to go through all the hassle of trying out lots of different amps and cabs, especially as I now live out in the sticks... miles away from a big music store. I guess that I want an amp and cab/cabs that will 'do everything' needed of them, like my old Trace gear does... Only lighter weight.

Stevie...
In Alex's defense, I am on this forum asking for advice and suggestions... The guy just happens to make cabs.
I don't feel as though he is hassling me to buy one of his.

[redstriper]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='340058' date='Nov 28 2008, 08:38 PM']I guess that I want an amp and cab/cabs that will 'do everything' needed of them, like my old Trace gear does... Only lighter weight.[/quote]

That's exactly what I wanted and the closest I found after extensive trial and error was markbass.

There's a basschatter called rasta who has just made a similar conversion and I recommend you make contact with him - I think he lives down your way too.

[DanOwens]

I thought if you were replacing a speaker you had to know the "Thiele/Small" info or it would all go horribly wrong!!??!

How are you guys choosing replacement speakers? Just on size and power?

Dan

[redstriper]

[quote name='TheBrokenDoor' post='340238' date='Nov 29 2008, 01:40 AM']I thought if you were replacing a speaker you had to know the "Thiele/Small" info or it would all go horribly wrong!!??!

How are you guys choosing replacement speakers? Just on size and power?

Dan[/quote]

In my case trial, error and advice from this forum - I can't understand the science and I trust my own ears more anyway.

[Mr.T]

First off, apologies in advance for what might turn out to be a bit of a waffle!

Well....
I have taken the first step and bought a Neo loaded 2 x 10 Ashdown cab (From a fellow BassChatter) reputed to weigh in at my 20 kilo target.

Step 2....
Take the driver out of my 1 x 15 with a view to fitting the much recommended Kappalite 3015.
You can imagine my surprise to find that the existing Trace driver only weighs about 10lb (So no real weight saving to be had!)
Also, my much loved Trace cabinets are basically just MDF boxes with bits of plastic tube for ports.

Anyway....
I am now thinking about changing the whole rig, as the advice so far seems to be something like "Go for more power and less speakers".

So I am wondering....
Would the Neo 2 x 10 be enough for small pub gigs with a more powerful amp?

If I do replace my 250smx amp, the replacement MUST sound at least as warm and smooth.
I don't want/need grind (I use effects for that), just a nice clean bass sound....

Currently on my list is....
The Markbass LM2 because most everyone seems to rate it very highly
The Ashdown MAG600 evo2 because it seems to have everything I need.

I am not fussed about getting a 'small' amp and don't ever DI anymore.
I just need a reasonable EQ section, a clean warm sound..... and reliability!

Any thoughts?

[bass_ferret]

Genz Benz. Tecamp. EA. Markbass R500 even. There are lots of other superlight options, LMII is not the only amp. Even amps like the EBS HD350 only weigh 20 lbs.

[redstriper]

Any 500 + watt amp will be a big improvement and the extra watts are the main thing you will appreciate in getting the most from your speakers, all the other features are just icing on the cake.

The Hartke LH 500 is worth trying, not quite as smooth sounding or as versatile as the LM 11 and much heavier, but still a very good amp for the money with a full rich tone.
The Ashdown has a similar sound to the Trace and will match your new cab if that matters to you.
The LM 11 is very controlled, clean and warm with a flexible eq that will do anything the Trace does only louder.

Hard to say if the 2 x 10 will be sufficient, it depends how loud and deep you like it, but there's a good chance it will be fine - plenty of people happily play gigs with that set up.
Keep the Trace 15 for now just in case and if you find you do need the extra cab, look out for a lighter weight one eg. the Ashdown mag 115 deep, which is only 20 kilos and very good value, or maybe another Ashdown superfly 2 x10.

Disclaimer:
This is just my opinion based on personal experience.

[Mr.T]

[quote name='redstriper' post='341269' date='Nov 30 2008, 05:55 PM']The Hartke LH 500 is worth trying, not quite as smooth sounding or as versatile as the LM 11 and much heavier, but still a very good amp for the money with a full rich tone.
The Ashdown has a similar sound to the Trace and will match your new cab if that matters to you.
The LM 11 is very controlled, clean and warm with a flexible eq that will do anything the Trace does only louder.[/quote]

I need smooth and versatile so I think it is between the Markbass and the Ashdown.
As I am so far from a big store I will have to buy mail order, hence why I am asking opinions.

The Ashdown is seeming favourite at the moment as...

It is a UK company.
It has a compressor and I like the one built into my Trace.
It is only £300.
I don't need a 'small' amp.
If it sounds similar to my 250smx I will be happy.

I haven't been able to find any reviews on the MAG600 Evo2 so does anyone have any experience with one that they could share?

Thanks.

[Mr.T]

p.s.

I have just found some pretty scary stuff about Ashdown amps and reliability, although it was from 2006.
Does anyone know if Ashdown have this sorted now?

Thanks.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Mr.T' post='341102' date='Nov 30 2008, 01:30 PM']I am now thinking about changing the whole rig, as the advice so far seems to be something like "Go for more power and less speakers".[/quote]

The more power and fewer speakers thing only works if the speakers can handle the power without overexcursion - that knocks all 2x10" cabs bar Acmes off the list and almost all 1x15"s. Ignore the 'power rating' claimed on the cab, it's the thermally limited power handling which is usually far greater than the excursion limited power handling.

Alex

[redstriper]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='341441' date='Nov 30 2008, 09:35 PM']The more power and fewer speakers thing only works if the speakers can handle the power without overexcursion - that knocks all 2x10" cabs bar Acmes off the list and almost all 1x15"s. Ignore the 'power rating' claimed on the cab, it's the thermally limited power handling which is usually far greater than the excursion limited power handling.

Alex[/quote]

Good point - you might as well keep the Trace amp and just look for a lighter 15" cab to go with the 2 x 10 if it's not loud enough on it's own.