Misconceptions... or is it better on the floor?

[anzoid]

I've been playing bass for 27 years (or so...) and in that time have been through a range of combos, amps and cabs. The one thing in common - they've always stayed on the floor.

My current rig is two MB NY 12" cabs with a GK head, and it all sits on the floor. I'm starting to find that 90% of the time it's complete overkill for the stuff I'm doing. Even one cab and the amp is way over the top - gain never goes above about a quarter, same for the volume.

So, I'm thinking of trying one of the 2x8 type combos - either a TC BG250-208 or (if I'm lucky...) an MB MiniMark 802. If I sit either combo on the floor the sound will just about hit the back of my knees - is there anything wrong with putting the combo on a table, a chair or a dedicated stand? Will I lose some inherent bass-ness if the combo isn't on the floor?

I tried one 12" cab + amp on a chair at a small gig last week but the hall we were in was so awful that I don't know whether the terrible bass sound was due to the room, or the fact for the first time ever I put the rig off the floor. We were having problems with everything though so, I'm thinking it was the room...

Anyway, am I right in thinking (for perhaps too many years) that the only place for the bass rig is on the floor?

[casapete]

Always been a bit of debate about this on here - for me, I prefer the cab on the floor with the additional
bass coupling that often happens. ( I do realise though that the sound you hear isn't necessarily easiest
to monitor accurately when it's blasting the back of your legs.)

[chris_b]

If your rig is "overkill" just use 1 cab on the quieter gigs and both cabs on the bigger gigs. IMO what you currently own is a better rig for volume and tone, in a gigging band context, than what you're proposing. Are both cabs on the floor, ie side by side or are they stacked? Are you having trouble hearing your bass? There is nothing wrong with running an amp at 25% of it's maximum volume. If you do you get a thing called headroom, which is better for your sound and tone when trying to amplify low notes than trying to run an amp at 80%, for example.

I do gigs where my amp is at 25% and others where I'm at about 60%. That's like driving your car at 20 in town and 70 on the motorway. I don't see the value in trying to run a bass amp flat out rather than 25%. IMO a flexible rig is a better rig even if it just ticks over for some of the time.

Unless you're going through the PA a couple of 8's won't carry the room. 12's ticking over will probably sound better that a pair of 8's being pushed. Then again, you loose dB (volume) by placing your cab where it can't mechanically couple with the floor.

[CameronJ]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1505775683' post='3374284']
If your rig is "overkill" just use 1 cab on the quieter gigs and both cabs on the bigger gigs. IMO what you currently own is a better rig for volume and tone, in a gigging band context, than what you're proposing. Are both cabs on the floor, ie side by side or are they stacked? Are you having trouble hearing your bass? There is nothing wrong with running an amp at 25% of it's maximum volume. If you do you get a thing called headroom, which is better for your sound and tone when trying to amplify low notes than trying to run an amp at 80%, for example.

I do gigs where my amp is at 25% and others where I'm at about 60%. That's like driving your car at 20 in town and 70 on the motorway. I don't see the value in trying to run a bass amp flat out rather than 25%. IMO a flexible rig is a better rig even if it just ticks over for some of the time.

Unless you're going through the PA a couple of 8's won't carry the room. 12's ticking over will probably sound better that a pair of 8's being pushed. Then again, you loose dB (volume) by placing your cab where it can't mechanically couple with the floor.
[/quote]

Chris has articulated this better than I ever could. Big +1 from me.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I usually have my 1x12 on the floor, but tilted back so that I'm directly on axis with it to hear the mids and highs. If the stage is so small that I can't tilt it back enough I put it on a stand to get it up near ear level.

[JazzBass4624]

When I'm only using 1 12" cab I put it on a quicklock tilt stand.
This eliminates acoustic coupling but for small venues this is not a problem for me.

[Painy]

Volume aside, do you like the sound you get with your current rig?
If so I'd say by changing your amp you risk losing the sound you have and like at the moment by trying to fix what is essentially a bit of a non problem (if it's a case of reducing the amount of gear you have to carry about that's possibly a different matter).
As has already been said, nothing wrong with having plenty of headroom. I'd just go with what you have for bigger gigs and then take just one cab to smaller gigs but tilt it as Bill suggests.
GAS for something new on the other hand is another issue entirely.

[Jack]

You can get elements of coupling by place the amp against a wall or in a corner. So, on a stand off the floor but in a corner may have more than enough coupling for your application.

I solved the problem using [url="https://www.thomann.de/gb/markbass_mark_stand.htm"]a fold up wedge[/url]. The cab is on the floor but pointed at my ears. I didn't want to lose the coupling effect (or have to carry!) a proper amp stand.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Where coupling is concerned that happens when the cab is less than 1/4 wavelength from a boundary, be it floor or wall. 1 meter is 1/4 wavelength at 85Hz, so you won't lose low end coupling with even a tall stand.

[anzoid]

Thanks everyone for the replies - much to reflect on. I admit there might be a hint of GAS in the question But looks like the most effective thing is going to be just giving it a go and seeing what results I get. It is useful to know though that the ideas I've been hanging onto for the last 20 years are pretty much wrong... This old dog shall learn a new trick!

[bazzbass]

In the 80s and 90s I always had my Peavey TNT on a milk crate, I knew nuthin about bass coupling, but knew it was too boomy on the floor and I couldn't hear myself. The crate fixed that. I stored all my cables etc in it so it had two uses.
I don't know if they even still make milk crates, I played on many a pub 'stage' made up of a few milk crates with plywood sheets on top, high tech indeed.

[discreet]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1505850475' post='3374802'] Where coupling is concerned that happens when the cab is less than 1/4 wavelength from a boundary, be it floor or wall. 1 meter is 1/4 wavelength at 85Hz, so you won't lose low end coupling with even a tall stand. [/quote]

This. You don't lose coupling on most stands. I use one of [url="https://www.pmtonline.co.uk/stagg-gas-4-2-guitar-amplifier-stand?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsLH6rL-z1gIVzbvtCh04_gOAEAQYASABEgIFGPD_BwE"]these[/url]. Adjustable, portable and affordable.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1505850475' post='3374802']
Where coupling is concerned that happens when the cab is less than 1/4 wavelength from a boundary, be it floor or wall. 1 meter is 1/4 wavelength at 85Hz, so you won't lose low end coupling with even a tall stand.
[/quote]

As ever Bill, you supply exactly what we needed to know.

[Ghost_Bass]

I always put my cabs on a tall stand, even the 2x12". This way i can hear my tone at ear level and have the master lower. I always go in to the PA so i don't need/want any sub-lows on stage. I do see the advantages of floor coupling for others that need/like those lows, in that case tilting the cab may be helpfull.

To the OP, you say you think your rig is too much but remember you're standing right in front of it, take a few steps further and the bass will start to get filtered/damped by the the room/audience/etc. and you may find that the 8's may not reach the back of the room as well as the 12's

[stevie]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1505901353' post='3375038']
This. You don't lose coupling on most stands. I use one of [url="https://www.pmtonline.co.uk/stagg-gas-4-2-guitar-amplifier-stand?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsLH6rL-z1gIVzbvtCh04_gOAEAQYASABEgIFGPD_BwE"]these[/url]. Adjustable, portable and affordable.
[/quote]

You won't lose bottom end with one of those. I'm not sure what the definition of a tall stand is, but if you go any higher than 18", you will lose bottom end.

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1505904785' post='3375073']
You won't lose bottom end with one of those. I'm not sure what the definition of a tall stand is, but if you go any higher than 18", you will lose bottom end.
[/quote]

This is what i use:



I do notice loss of the bass coupling but i gain definition and can lower the volume. I use this stand everywhere.

[scoot]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1505901353' post='3375038']
This. You don't lose coupling on most stands. I use one of [url="https://www.pmtonline.co.uk/stagg-gas-4-2-guitar-amplifier-stand?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsLH6rL-z1gIVzbvtCh04_gOAEAQYASABEgIFGPD_BwE"]these[/url]. Adjustable, portable and affordable.
[/quote]

If its a head and cab you use, how do you stop the head from moving when the cab is tilted back?

[discreet]

[quote name='scoot' timestamp='1505908336' post='3375108']
If its a head and cab you use, how do you stop the head from moving when the cab is tilted back?
[/quote]

Hook the front amp feet over the front edge of the cab.

Edited September 20, 2017 by discreet

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1505906766' post='3375098']
I do notice loss of the bass coupling but i gain definition and can lower the volume.
[/quote]At that height there's no loss of coupling to notice. What you will notice is being able to better hear the mids and highs, which can subjectively seem like a loss of lows.

[stevie]

I think Ghost Bass is capable of recognising loss of bass when he hears it. Maybe you should revise your theory, Bill, because I hear what he hears when I lift a cabinet up a couple of feet. You seem to be confusing half space conditions with floor bounce. It's perfectly easy to measure.

[fftc]

Where would a Gramma pad fit into this situation regarding coupling?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Grammas claim to fix something that isn't broken. Cabs don't cause stages to vibrate, resonant stages cause cabs to vibrate. Preventing that doesn't require an expensive piece of kit, a piece of yoga mat is all you need.

[Maude]

I use a PJB Suitcase on top of the 4b extension cab, this is always placed on top of an aluminium 'hop up' platform which brings the top of the amp to about 5 1/2 feet off the floor.
No loss of bass and and so much easier to hear.
There is nothing about this set up that I can see me changing in a long time.
It's also useful for putting the backdrop up

Something like this https://www.screwfix.com/p/work-platform-aluminium-600mm/5892P?tc=EB9&ds_rl=1245250&gclid=CjwKCAjw6ZLOBRALEiwAxzyCWxlKnB_X5G2Xe9SqO3nJU8PiBfsRRpn64prJ1jiOCh19kMNwVIlrJBoCgJMQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CPbH6sHaudYCFcqxUQodoesIqg

[bazzbass]

Misconceptions... or is it better on the floor?

If you're having misconceptions , try having sex in bed, not on the floor