Your thoughts please: Best acoustic guitar to record direct into desk?

[Beedster]

I'm in need of an acoustic guitar, ideally with a cutaway for easy access to the dusty end, that records beautifully when DI'd. I have a lovely old 1970's Gibson that fits the bill in most ways, and which if it had a cutaway I'd have modified with PUP/internal mic. But it doesn't! I also used to have a J-200 that was glorious DI'd, but both too big to play sitting down and again lacking the cutaway.

So, any thoughts welcome. Budget is not really an issue as it's likely that I'll be selling my current two acoustics to pay for whatever I decide to buy (combined value is about £3k). What I do want however is a guitar that comes with a good onboard set up, I don't want to have to either modify or experiment with different systems etc (which is something - following 5 years of experimentation with double bass PUPs and amplification - is something for which I simply have no appetite or time).

I'm aware that there's a whole host of information online, but an awful lot of it is either fanboy rhetoric or advertorial marketing bull, so I'm asking here simply to get some perspectives from bassists and/or engineers, both of whom are of course entirely above such things

Thanks in advance

C

[Bilbo]

That's a tough question, Beads. I have an Ovation Custom Legend (steel string) and a Takamine Cd132sc (nylon) which meets my needs but I have no idea whether these are going to give you the sounds you are looking for. I also have Harley Benton 12 string and 6 string which I can record with (these are all on my Soundcloud page). They are OK for the money. The Ovation gives me the best sound but I know that Ovations are marmite. I suspect a decent Taylor would do it but I think you should think carefully about what kinds of sound you are looking for.

[dlloyd]

I'd be looking for something with a dual piezo/internal mic system. I'd personally be happier to start off with a guitar I liked and to add a K&K Trinity Pro system (do not pass GO)... they're really, really good.

[SubsonicSimpleton]

Not directly on topic, but bear with me.

Recently there has been a lot of developement in the use of impulse responses, which is potentially very useful for home recordists wanting to record acoustic instruments - several hardware manufacturers feature this in their products focussed mainly on live use (axe fxII, line6 helix, fishman aura, audiosprockets tonedexter) - some use premade IRs, some allow you to create your own, and you can buy professionally made IRs very cheaply. There are plenty of demo videos available on youtube, I'll link a couple.

I first came across this concept some time back, and was intrigued (thinking it might be a good solution for DB, but the units are way to expensive for casual experimentation)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZixaSgBOy4

Pretty recently the tonedexter came up on the american forum DB section so I had a look around and was quite impressed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Argxbq0vvM

Bit more digging and the low-cost software option appears(worth watching these to hear how the IRs affect both piezo and regular mag pup DI signals)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4ob9Qn8uH4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmPm_28Jtxs

If you have a plugin that does EQ matching (like izotope ozone) you can even have a go at making your own IRs.

After a little google-fu, I found a free VST called Bodilizer and a bunch of impulses for it, and a quick test using my old ovation copy which has a rather basic and nasty sounding piezo system sounded favourable - I'll do a proper test tomorrow, and I'm happy to publish the audio on soundcloud or supply the uncompressed 24bit wavs if anyone is interested.

Why is this relevant? You might want to prioritise ergonomics and acoustic performance over onboard electronics given how much sonic improvement is available from hardware/plugs, and you might not need to spend top dollar on buying an axe with a cutaway, which might let you hang on to one of your existing instruments (if you feel they have another worthwhile flavour to offer, or writing mojo etc).

Edited October 2, 2017 by SubsonicSimpleton

[Pinball]

An interesting thread for me as I'm looking at recording with an acoustic guitar. I have a couple of great MIJ Takamine guitars that I like very much but I wasn't convinced that they suited my voice. I have a deep voice and wanted something with more sparkle so am selling them and have settled on a Simon and Patrick Woodland model and an old Yamaha LL6, based purely on their acoustic sound, playability and how they complement my own voice. My thinking is in line with this bit below as both are electro acoustics.

[quote name='SubsonicSimpleton' timestamp='1506978596' post='3382537']
Why is this relevant? You might want to prioritise ergonomics and acoustic performance over onboard electronics given how much sonic improvement is available from hardware/plugs, and you might not need to spend top dollar on buying an axe with a cutaway, which might let you hang on to one of your existing instruments (if you feel they have another worthwhile flavour to offer, or writing mojo etc).
[/quote]

[xgsjx]

I'm gonna chuck Lowden in there. When my dad in law was looking for a new electro acoustic, we went round tonnes of shops & played hundreds of guitars. He took me as he wanted to hear how it sounded from an audience viewpoint & have someone who'll play the same parts every time.
We went through a lot of guitars from the big players such as Taylor, Martin & Gibson, many of them are very beautiful instruments. But we kept coming back to Lowden, an O35.

The thing with guitars, like any instrument, You have to go & play it. I really liked the Martin D28, but my dad in law didn't get on with it like he did with the Taylor guitars. We both loved the sound, feel & playability of the Lowden.
It's down to personal preference.

[Matt P]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1507184323' post='3383719']
I'm gonna chuck Lowden in there. When my dad in law was looking for a new electro acoustic, we went round tonnes of shops & played hundreds of guitars. He took me as he wanted to hear how it sounded from an audience viewpoint & have someone who'll play the same parts every time.
We went through a lot of guitars from the big players such as Taylor, Martin & Gibson, many of them are very beautiful instruments. But we kept coming back to Lowden, an O35.

The thing with guitars, like any instrument, You have to go & play it. I really liked the Martin D28, but my dad in law didn't get on with it like he did with the Taylor guitars. We both loved the sound, feel & playability of the Lowden.
It's down to personal preference.
[/quote]

i agree with this, i tried loads of very lovely and expensive guitars on my quest to find my perfect acoustic, i ended up with a McIlroy which is very similar to a Lowden (Dermot McIlroy learnt his craft at Lowden and was the production manager for a while)

i was very close to buying a Martin OM21 for a long while but the McIlroy AS25 won hands down, it took about 20 seconds of playing to know it was the one. i've played loads of Taylor's from the baby range up to the 800 series and none of them seemed to live up to the price tag. it's a similar story with Takemine, i've played a wide range of them and there was only one that was hard to put back on the stand in the shop (an all mahogany small body, if i hadn't have been skint i'd have taken it home with me)

if you do end up having to fit an aftermarket pickup then i must recommend the AER AK15 that i have in my McIlroy, a really natural sounding pickup, i've recorded with it a few times and always got surprised reactions from the engineer on how close the pickup sounded to the acoustic tone.

i think that as the budget goes up it actually gets harder to buy an off the shelf electro acoustic as the top builders tend to lean more to making great acoustic guitars (rarely with cutaways as standard) and then let the buyer decide what pickup (if any) they want. if you were looking for a 500 quid electro acoustic ten i could easily suggest a short list of great makers to look at!

you seem to have a liking for Gibson so this would probably be a good place to start, they do make some very nice electro's that will fit easily into budget. (i've got a hankering for one of the blues kings but unless my numbers come up in the lottery it's going to stay a dream.)

i think that the best advice would be to try every guitar you can and then let your ears decide.

[Hazy Bass]

Is there any reason it has to be recorded DI rather than with a mic? Given the choice I would always record acoustic guitar with a mic rather than DI, and with the budget you have available there are some excellent mics for recording. My favourite is the Audio Technica AT4041, but any reasonable quality studio condenser mic should give good results. Mic placement can also make a difference, and so can more than one mic.

If you have to record DI then I would suggest trying a dedicated outboard acoustic preamp as well as just the guitar's pickup, e.g. Radial, Headway etc. These can make the world of difference. Good luck!

[Kebabkid]

As both a owner and a user of friend's ones, I'd like to throw in a Taylor. The 514s and 814s are great but I've just seen the price of them new - yikes.

They play really well and have cutaways but the pickup system is very responsive and they offer a good, full, balanced and natural sound not unlike some of the piezo-equipped ones. To me, the older models equipped with a microphone inside as well as under saddle pickup offered the most natural DI sound.

I note you're in Canterbury. I'd say swing round the south and visit Guitar Guitar in Epsom as they have a fantastic range of acoustics and a large, dedicated acoustic room where you'll be able to try the guitars through an amp, desk or PA. Great people to deal with and they're also open on Sundays.

All the best with your search and I hope you find what you're looking for.

[Nicko]

[quote name='Hazy Bass' timestamp='1507212625' post='3383966']
Is there any reason it has to be recorded DI rather than with a mic? Given the choice I would always record acoustic guitar with a mic rather than DI, and with the budget you have available there are some excellent mics for recording. My favourite is the Audio Technica AT4041, but any reasonable quality studio condenser mic should give good results. Mic placement can also make a difference, and so can more than one mic.

If you have to record DI then I would suggest trying a dedicated outboard acoustic preamp as well as just the guitar's pickup, e.g. Radial, Headway etc. These can make the world of difference. Good luck!
[/quote]


+1. Why compromise the sound with a pickup which never quite replicates what you hear when you play acoustically. Although, for best effect I believe a combination of DI and a mic can be used.

[skankdelvar]

IMO, Taylor guitars fitted with [url="https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/features/electronics/expression-system%C2%AE"]the Expression System[/url] are the nicest sounding off-the-peg, factory fitted system.

[Hazy Bass]

[quote name='Nicko' timestamp='1507288493' post='3384512']
+1. Why compromise the sound with a pickup which never quite replicates what you hear when you play acoustically. Although, for best effect I believe a combination of DI and a mic can be used.
[/quote]

Yes, mix of DI and mic can work very well too! And if you record both you can either mix them together or choose whichever sounds best to you.

[Beedster]

Folks

Thanks so much for the great advice above, I completely forgot that I posted this and for whatever reason is doesn't show up when I search my threads.

I need DI because the room I have will take a whole of of work to get to anything like the acoustic quality I would like, this made a whole lot worse by unpredictable noise from outside the building that wasn't a problem when it was installed but has become one. In short, using DI I can get away with stuff that I might not using a mic. I also have some very very nice preamps that will help enormously

This is the guitar that is currently making me feel a little hot under the collar http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PREMIUM-GIBSON-USA-Electro-Acoustic-Songwriter-Studio-Deluxe-Natural-2016/112586308701?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 and I'm very tempted to take a drive up to play it. As pointed out above, I have something of an affinity with Gibsons I have an Ovation USA Melissa Etheridge 12-string (which I can play as a 6 of course) and Gibson MK-81, both of which are lovely, but neither of which on their own are sufficient for my recording needs.

Lots of ideas above, I might have to do some leg work

[randythoades]

This might be a bit off the main topic but I have had great results, particularly when seated in the mix, of my Parkwood H2 which has the fishman power bridge. I just run this into an outboard Ashdown acoustic preamp and into the desk. If you use heavy strings it gets a great acoustic tone without all of the faff that goes with mics. Depends on the quality level required of course but it may well be worth looking into the hybrid guitars at that price point (Godin, Taylor etc) which will probably have better electronics on board to be able to lose the outboard preamp.

[Skybone]

Have you considered looking at something like a Fishman Rare Earth pickup? It can be retro-fitted to any acoustic with a standard round soundhole, and can just plug into an audio interface. I have the Fishman Neo Humbucker, which is the cheap version of the Rare Earth, but it still sounds really rather good.

As ever, if you're looking to buy a new acoustic, take yourself off to your nearest merchant of acoustic instruments, and then simply sit & play as many as you can. Pick the one that sounds and plays the best.

I did that a few years back, and ended up buying a seriously sweet sounding, all wood, acoustic (no piezo or preamp) by a company I'd never heard of (Naga Guitars). Even today, whenever I pick it up, it sounds as sweet as anything, and anyone who's tried it out really rates it.

[Beedster]

Folks

Many thanks for the above. I came across a solution by accident, although it had been sitting under my nose for months without me realising it. I simply took the octave strings off my Ovation Melissa Etheridge 12 and now have a beautiful sound and recording six string, with the necessary access to the dusty end. I'd always assumed that de-string a 12 was a no-no due to the heavier bracing etc stifling the sound when tension was removed from the neck/body, but I hadn't really considered that the Ovation, plastic back and carbon top, was not going to suffer from this problem. Saved me quite a lot of hassle! I'd still be keen to know if there might be a downside to this that I haven't considered? 

Thanks again for the above

Chris

[MoonBassAlpha]

A possible downside could be that the unused machines may rattle. Not the pegs themselves as they can usually be adjusted to take up any slack, but the posts.

I've seen this on cheaper 12 strings, of course this may be a non-issue with the Ovation.