EliasMooseblaster Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 This might be the daftest question I've ever asked on (this part of*) Basschat, but it's been bothering me for days now: is there a tougher grade of solder, with a higher melting point, that some manufacturers use in their instruments? I opened up my Hagstrom in the hope of changing the pot configuration, and for the life of me, I can seem to unsolder the original joints! I'm fairly sure the soldering iron is fine - it's 25W, I've used it for plenty of jobs in the past, and it's still melting the solder in my coil. I know heat is being transferred because I can feel the casing of the pots getting hot. Is there something else I've missed? *[size=3]I've probably asked something really chuffing stupid on other boards...[/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgano Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Yes, the newer lead-free (eco-friendly) solder melts at a higher temperature. It also doesn't have as nice a shiny finish when it solidifies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 When melting solder, always melt some new solder onto the tip of the soldering-iron. I don't know the science, but it makes it better at getting the solder on the component to melt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 If the pot is large - it acts as a heat sink... so removing blobs of solder can be a lot more problematic than you imagine. Additionally, the longer you keep the heat on pot, the more likely you are to damage the pot. Tricksy! The worst was when I was trying to unsolder some ancient solder from a JD pickup. That's like the world's biggest heatsink known to man. At least the likelihood of damage there was greatly reduced in that case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 One of these can help. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Desoldering-Solder-Sucker-Spare-electrosmart%C2%AE/dp/B003YT2F4I If you can get some melted and "suck" the molten solder off, then you might be able to get there. But, as EBS-f says, there is a fair chance of damage to the pot. Personally, I'd change the pot, if it's a normal 250K or 500K ohm type pot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilebodgers Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1508246220' post='3390796'] If the pot is large - it acts as a heat sink... so removing blobs of solder can be a lot more problematic than you imagine. Additionally, the longer you keep the heat on pot, the more likely you are to damage the pot. Tricksy! The worst was when I was trying to unsolder some ancient solder from a JD pickup. That's like the world's biggest heatsink known to man. At least the likelihood of damage there was greatly reduced in that case. [/quote] A higher wattage iron makes it easier - I have a 50W Weller TCP and that can heat a localised area on a pot very quickly indeed. A solder-sucker and/or de-soldering braid can get the old stuff off cleanly. I've managed to steer clear of lead-free solder up to now, last time I did anything professional in electronics was 2002 and we were still using lead (at least for small-scale production). I've got a big supply of standard 60/40 tin/lead for my personal use which will probably see me out :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Fortunately you can still get 60/40 solder (60% tin, 40% lead) which melts at a lower temperature than the modern [s]sh!t[/s] stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary mac Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 I've found that a more powerful iron is what is needed for soldering to back of pots. I had a 25 watter for years, it was fine for the lugs on pots but not so on the backs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonBassAlpha Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 The size and shape of the iron'so tip can make a huge difference on the heat transfer too. A big flat bit will get the heat in quicker than a small pointy one, and as mentioned above, and big blob of molten solder on the bit will transfer heat in quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubrad Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 Get some flux, as it'll be even better that a blob of molten solder. Make sure it's acid free, electronics grade flux, not the acid type used for plumbing soldering. Hopefully the reason is obvious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBollock Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 (edited) I've been using an 18W soldering iron for thirty years and never had a problem. As has been said, melting some fresh solder onto the iron bit can help, but what I always find helps with stubborn, old joints, is melting fresh solder right onto the old solder. I know it might seem odd, adding solder to an area where you want to remove it, but it has always worked everytime for me. Edited October 18, 2017 by KingBollock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 [quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1508245072' post='3390783'] This might be the daftest question I've ever asked on (this part of*) Basschat, but it's been bothering me for days now: is there a tougher grade of solder, with a higher melting point, that some manufacturers use in their instruments? I opened up my Hagstrom in the hope of changing the pot configuration, and for the life of me, I can seem to unsolder the original joints! I'm fairly sure the soldering iron is fine - it's 25W, I've used it for plenty of jobs in the past, and it's still melting the solder in my coil. I know heat is being transferred because I can feel the casing of the pots getting hot. Is there something else I've missed? *[size=3]I've probably asked something really chuffing stupid on other boards...[/size] [/quote] Possibly lead free solder has been used and your iron isn't hitting the melting point. That or you are using too fine a tip and all of the heat disipates too quickly into the parent metal when you strike the joint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 [quote name='nilebodgers' timestamp='1508271387' post='3391070'] A higher wattage iron makes it easier - I have a 50W Weller TCP and that can heat a localised area on a pot very quickly indeed. A solder-sucker and/or de-soldering braid can get the old stuff off cleanly. I've managed to steer clear of lead-free solder up to now, last time I did anything professional in electronics was 2002 and we were still using lead (at least for small-scale production). I've got a big supply of standard 60/40 tin/lead for my personal use which will probably see me out :-) [/quote] True but a larger soldering bit on your iron can improve results as it physically holds more heat and does not require topping up from the electricity immediately it is applied. If the iron is not hitting the melting point however neither approach will work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 With lead free solder it is worth paying for the higher grade one with silver in it. It flows and conducts much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 [quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1508327758' post='3391364'] I've been using an 18W soldering iron for thirty years and never had a problem. As has been said, melting some fresh solder onto the iron bit can help, but what I always find helps with stubborn, old joints, is melting fresh solder right onto the old solder. I know it might seem odd, adding solder to an area where you want to remove it, but it has always worked everytime for me. [/quote] That's because the additional metal from your new solder absorbs heat and then that extra heat is transferred to the joint almost instantly through conduction through the larger contact area that is made by the softened metal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EliasMooseblaster Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 [quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1508423588' post='3392103'] Possibly lead free solder has been used and your iron isn't hitting the melting point. That or you are using too fine a tip and all of the heat disipates too quickly into the parent metal when you strike the joint. [/quote] [quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1508423898' post='3392108'] With lead free solder it is worth paying for the higher grade one with silver in it. It flows and conducts much better. [/quote] I have been using lead-free solder, and my iron melts that easily enough, but then I think I paid all of a fiver for it in Maplin. Perhaps it's worth me investing in some of the fancy silver stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 [quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1508424895' post='3392118'] I have been using lead-free solder, and my iron melts that easily enough, but then I think I paid all of a fiver for it in Maplin. Perhaps it's worth me investing in some of the fancy silver stuff! [/quote] That suggests that you aren't getting the heat to where the fillet metal - the solder itself - is quickly enough. The pot back-shells may be sucking heat faster than your iron can supply it. I don't see any value in replacing the solder if your iron is working with the stuff you've got. It might also be that the wires are tied around the posts in addition to being soldered. Some people I know like to make a secure mechanical contact before applying any solder at all. If you have a desoldering tool to take the solder right off the connection it should be immediately apparent if this is so. Going back to the original question - is there an industrial strength solder - the answer is yes. There are two that I know off the top of my head but I know of no situation where they have been used in electrical applications. They are Silver Soldering and Brazing. The temperatures necessary to melt the filler metals (brass in the case of brazing) are high enough to destroy most electrical components very quickly. They are more for mechanical applications where a solid joint is required without melting of the parent metals. Silver Soldering; http://www.pollymodelengineering.co.uk/global/technical-notes/basic-silver-soldering.asp Brazing; http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/brazingjoints.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBollock Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 [quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1508424044' post='3392109'] That's because the additional metal from your new solder absorbs heat and then that extra heat is transferred to the joint almost instantly through conduction through the larger contact area that is made by the softened metal. [/quote] I know how and why it works, but if you don't know about it, it seems counterintuitive. I have had the same Antex 18W soldering iron for thirty years and I have only ever used either a 3mm bit or a 1mm bit, depending on the job. I have never come across a joint it couldn't work with. I have actually got a 100W soldering iron, somewhere, but I have never even plugged it in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EliasMooseblaster Posted October 20, 2017 Author Share Posted October 20, 2017 [quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1508446431' post='3392343'] I have actually got a 100W soldering iron, somewhere, but I have never even plugged it in. [/quote] Gordon Bennett! At least it might make a good backup if your boiler's struggling this winter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBollock Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 [quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1508499081' post='3392595'] Gordon Bennett! At least it might make a good backup if your boiler's struggling this winter! [/quote] It's just one of those gun shaped ones with a trigger. Back in the early nineties, I briefly worked at a place repairing mobile phones. Mobile phones back then weren't quite as small and delicate as they are now, but they were still pretty delicate. The soldering iron we used looked just like any other soldering iron, but it was 120W and, apparently, cost the owner several hundred quid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norris Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Clean your tip on a damp sponge then melt a blob of fresh solder onto the tip. The fresh solder will contain flux, which helps, plus the fresh solder will improve the surface contact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
only4 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I agree with the flux suggestion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DGBass Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 I found similar problems re-soldering wiring in fairly modern basses...my 25w iron was taking ages to melt solder. I've also tried several types of lead free solder and not been impressed with the results. Luckily I have a supply of high lead content solder thats probably quite toxic! It really solders up easily and joints don't fracture or crack like some lead free soldering work I've done. I suppose getting a more powerful iron would help, or get your hands on some old school leaded solder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkandrew Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 [quote name='dangoose' timestamp='1509137353' post='3397010'] I found similar problems re-soldering wiring in fairly modern basses...my 25w iron was taking ages to melt solder. I've also tried several types of lead free solder and not been impressed with the results. Luckily I have a supply of high lead content solder thats probably quite toxic! It really solders up easily and joints don't fracture or crack like some lead free soldering work I've done. I suppose getting a more powerful iron would help, or get your hands on some old school leaded solder. [/quote] Old fashioned tin/lead solder is still permitted for use in "safety critical" applications so can probably be bought from marine or aviation engineering supplies specialists online if you can't find any locally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_Bass Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 I frequently find old solders that are way harder to melt than newer ones. Melting a bit of solder on top of it is the best way to melt the hard solder. That and the fact that i only have 60W soldering irons!!! I must be an animal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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