Precision neck relief

[DirkThrust]

I've got a 2008 US Precision which is now about 6 months old. I like a fairly high action but from new it was higher than I liked so I've lowered the bridge saddles so that the E and G string saddles have no more adjustment left, they are resting on the bridge baseplate, and I've screwed the trussrod in probably by a full turn but the action is still quite high.

I took it back to the shop I bought it from for a set up under warranty. When I mentioned the high action to the tech He said something along the lines of that if you take off the neck plate there is an adjuster underneath to angle the neck which would sort out the high action.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but he must be thinking of the Fender Microtilt system, which Fender haven't fitted since the 1970s and never on the Precision. This doesn't really fill me with confidence that he knows what he is talking about.

My question is, surely a new Fender shouldn't need this much adjustment to get the action down. I've owned various Precisions and never done more than a bit of tweaking to adjust the neck to my liking.

Presumably once he discovers that there is no neck angle adjuster fitted he will have to shim the neck. So is it normal to have to do this on a nearly new bass? I thought it was something that was done once all the trussrod adjustment had been used up on an older bass.

[The Burpster]

Kinda yes and kinda no....

Shimming has nothing to do with the T-rod relationship. The T-rod sets neck relief not string height.....

sometimes some basses need shiming to get the correct angle of the strings inrelation to the neck. Yes that can be so on a new bass if it isnt set up to your personal spec from the factory.

Does that help?

[DirkThrust]

[quote name='The Burpster' post='325239' date='Nov 9 2008, 12:39 PM']Does that help?[/quote]

Kinda yes and kinda no

I'm slightly confused now. Surely reducing the neck relief using the truss rod will have the side effect of lowering the action? Tightening the trussrod flattens the neck therefore reducing the action.

My main worry is that having to make the amount of adjustment that I've had to is an indicator that the neck is faulty. If there is no more adjustment on the bridge saddles to lower the strings then how do I get the action lower, bearing in mind that I like it quite high anyway, I'm not trying to get it unrealistically low.

[sgt-pluck]

[quote name='AndyMartin' post='325250' date='Nov 9 2008, 01:11 PM']Kinda yes and kinda no

I'm slightly confused now. Surely reducing the neck relief using the truss rod will have the side effect of lowering the action? Tightening the trussrod flattens the neck therefore reducing the action.

My main worry is that having to make the amount of adjustment that I've had to is an indicator that the neck is faulty. If there is no more adjustment on the bridge saddles to lower the strings then how do I get the action lower, bearing in mind that I like it quite high anyway, I'm not trying to get it unrealistically low.[/quote]

Adjusting the neck relief is only a part of the action story. You don't get full adjustment of string height through truss rod/neck relief only. If it were me I'd be getting the action somewhere near where I want it through shimming the neck and adjusting the bridge, and then be fine tuning it with truss rod adjustment. If your action is still high when the bridge saddles are at their lowest position, I think you need to shim the neck.

There's a really good thread going on at the moment about neck shims. Edit - [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=29444"]here[/url] it is.

Pluck

Edited November 9, 2008 by sgt-pluck

[DirkThrust]

[quote name='sgt-pluck' post='325260' date='Nov 9 2008, 01:31 PM']Adjusting the neck relief is only a part of the action story. You don't get full adjustment of string height through truss rod/neck relief only.

There's a really good thread going on at the moment about neck shims. Edit - [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=29444"]here[/url] it is.

Pluck[/quote]

Sure, I understand the relationship between trussrod and bridge saddle adjustment. I'm just worried that I'm having to adjust it so much this early in the bass's life. The trussrod's head is already disappearing into the neck end. My understanding (maybe wrong) is that the trussrod is something that needs tweaking over time to counteract the effects of ageing on the neck relief.

If I've already run out of adjustment on the bridge saddles it's kinda limiting my options in the future.


I've been reading that thread. Very interesting and I've learnt a lot from it but it doesn't answer my particular worry.

[sgt-pluck]

[quote name='AndyMartin' post='325268' date='Nov 9 2008, 01:49 PM']Sure, I understand the relationship between trussrod and bridge saddle adjustment. I'm just worried that I'm having to adjust it so much this early in the bass's life. The trussrod's head is already disappearing into the neck end. My understanding (maybe wrong) is that the trussrod is something that needs tweaking over time to counteract the effects of ageing on the neck relief.

If I've already run out of adjustment on the bridge saddles it's kinda limiting my options in the future.


I've been reading that thread. Very interesting and I've learnt a lot from it but it doesn't answer my particular worry.[/quote]

I don't mean to be rude, but are you sure you understand?! Running out of adjustment on the bridge saddles does not limit your options in the future - you just need to shim the neck. It's nothing to worry about - loads of Fender guitars and basses are shimmed like this from the factory. It's common to find fag packets, bits of sand paper etc in the neck pocket. If you try to fix the problem by over-tightening the truss rod, not only will you not fix the problem (as you're finding out!), but you might feck your neck!

Pluck

Edited November 9, 2008 by sgt-pluck

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='sgt-pluck' post='325278' date='Nov 9 2008, 02:04 PM']I don't mean to be rude, but are you sure you understand?! Running out of adjustment on the bridge saddles does not limit your options in the future - you just need to shim the neck. It's nothing to worry about - loads of Fender guitars and basses are shimmed like this from the factory. It's common to find fag packets, bits of sand paper etc in the neck pocket. If you try to fix the problem by over-tightening the truss rod, not only will you not fix the problem (as you're finding out!), but you might feck your neck!

Pluck[/quote]

+1. Admittedly, it makes no sense if you assume that manufacturing processes are consistent. But it's true; shimming is a good way round a lot of action issues, and it's a job anyone can do - no need for luthiers or techs.

[The Burpster]

The guys above are right....

Neck relief is part of the set up regime, not a way to lower or raise the action..... Neck relief should be set for the set and gauge of string you are using. Its measured by fretting the string at fret 1 & 13 and measuring the gap between the bottom of teh string and top of the fret at the 6th fret. this should remain the same for your style of play...... It should have very little to do with the height of the strings at the frets above the 12th. This is set by using the saddles and then if necassary a shim to lower the neck.

If you want to learn a lot more about set ups and how all the set up segments realte to each other I suggest this book......

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Guitar-Player-Repair-Guide-Electrics/dp/0879302917/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226244699&sr=8-3"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Guitar-Player-Repa...4699&sr=8-3[/url]

If you read it and use its advice you will save its value first time you do a set up as you'll have saved the cost of getting it done professionally.

[DirkThrust]

Hmm OK. If it's nothing to worry about then that answers my question.

Thanks for your replies.

[DirkThrust]

I've just collected this from the shop who were doing the set up and there seem to be a couple of problems with it.

As far as I can see the tech has shimmed the neck but now if you look down the neck from the body it appears to bow up at the body end so it is unplayable above the 12th fret. Also one of the grub screws in the bridge saddle on the A string is jammed solid so it isn't possible to even raise the action on that string, not that it would help much.

So I'm at a loss as to what I do now. I'm gonna take it back tomorrow but any ideas what the problem may be?

[sgt-pluck]

[quote]So I'm at a loss as to what I do now. I'm gonna take it back tomorrow but [b]any ideas what the problem may be?[/b][/quote]

A shop tech who doesn't know what he's doing by the sound of it.

What bridge is on that bass? Is it a stock Fender bridge?

Pluck

[DirkThrust]

Yes I'm kicking myself that I didn't check it more thoroughly before I took it away. I had a quick acoustic noodle down the neck and it seemed ok. Obviously I missed the problem area.

It's a stock Fender HMV bridge. The latest type. I've taken the bridge saddle off, soaked it in WD40, removed the grubscrew and tried to screw it back in but it goes so far and comes up hard against something. It's obviously a manufacturing fault. I've tried filing the thread but I can't cure it.

I just don't know what could cause the neck to be deformed like that. Surely shimming wouldn't cause it. It's under warranty so I'm gonna take it back and get this idiot to sort it or replace it.

[johnnylager]

[quote name='AndyMartin' post='329340' date='Nov 14 2008, 06:55 PM']As far as I can see the tech has shimmed the neck but now if you look down the neck from the body it appears to bow up at the body end so it is unplayable above the 12th fret. Also one of the grub screws in the bridge saddle on the A string is jammed solid so it isn't possible to even raise the action on that string, not that it would help much.

So I'm at a loss as to what I do now. I'm gonna take it back tomorrow but any ideas what the problem may be?[/quote]
Difficult to say without seeing it, but it sound to me as if he has shimmed the body end of the pocket and not it's full length. The rod adjustment [yours, his or both] could give the impression of a bowed neck.

I had a similar problem to your inital post about the E&G bottoming out on me old 'Ray. I removed the neck and shimmed the whole pocket with a few of sheets of paper as I found card too thick. This gave more more overall height between the fretboard & body, enabling me to lower the saddles to the right height. The few sheets of paper I used was still enough to give some play beneath the saddles.

I then adjusted the neck so there was very little relief, so almost straight [as I know Bernie Goodfellow for one does], then adjusted the saddle height / intonation individually. I do like a fairly low action though.

You did the right thing taking it to a tech as you wouldn't want to cane the rod. Unfortunately, I don't know of any techs in Pompey but Bernie Goodfellow is just down the road in Brighton and he does a cracking set-up...

Good luck, John.

[DirkThrust]

[quote name='johnnylager' post='329363' date='Nov 14 2008, 07:40 PM']Difficult to say without seeing it, but it sound to me as if he has shimmed the body end of the pocket and not it's full length.[/quote]

Yes, as far as I can see that's what he has done.

I'm going to see if he can rectify it first under warranty but I'm getting a bad feeling about it. Surely he must have noticed that it won't play above the 12th fret. Either he doesn't care or doesn't know.

[BigRedX]

Posted this in the other neck relief/shimming thread when I meant to post here:

Whether you shim the whole neck pocket or just one end makes no real difference to being able the get the action lower provided that you use enough material in the shim. The only difference will be where the angle of the headstock in relation to the body. And adding shim material to just one end of the neck pocket will give you more room for adjustment at the bridge for less material added.

Have a look at the diagram I made in [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=18034&view=findpost&p=184507"]post #27 of this thread[/url] and all will become clear.

You might also want to check ou the diagram about neck relief in relation to action in [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=13342&view=findpost&p=138864"]post #6 of this thread[/url].

HTH

However since it sounds like the bass is new and under warranty, the shop should fix it or replace it with one that plays properly if they don't have the ability to sort it out.

[DirkThrust]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='329539' date='Nov 15 2008, 08:33 AM']However since it sounds like the bass is new and under warranty, the shop should fix it or replace it with one that plays properly if they don't have the ability to sort it out.[/quote]

Of course, and to be fair to the shop they couldn't be more helpful. They've taken it back again and the last time I saw it it was clutched in the tech's sweaty mitt as he disappeared into his workshop. He told me that he sent it back to Fender for the original work as it was a warranty problem and they agreed to take responsibility for it. Maybe that would explain why it took three weeks before I got it back

I'm just trying to get some understanding of what the problem is rather just dumping it on someone else and remaining blissfully ignorant. Looking at those diagrams I would say that the original problem would have been cured by shimming the neck at the body end of the pocket if it hadn't been for the slight upturn in the neck.

Edited November 15, 2008 by AndyMartin

[Beedster]

[quote name='AndyMartin' post='329607' date='Nov 15 2008, 11:52 AM']Of course, and to be fair to the shop they couldn't be more helpful. They've taken it back again and the last time I saw it it was clutched in the tech's sweaty mitt as he disappeared into his workshop. He told me that he sent it back to Fender for the original work as it was a warranty problem and they agreed to take responsibility for it. Maybe that would explain why it took three weeks before I got it back

I'm just trying to get some understanding of what the problem is rather just dumping it on someone else and remaining blissfully ignorant. Looking at those diagrams I would say that the original problem would have been cured by shimming the neck at the body end of the pocket if it hadn't been for the slight upturn in the neck.[/quote]

Sounds like the original problem was Fender's still poor QC, and the solution is not only written above but is best done by you (or a friendly BCer) and not a tech in a shop who has already demonstrated that he doesn't know what he's doing. There's no mystery to truss rod/shim/saddle relationships, you just need to get to grips with them, and one of the best ways of doing so is to do the work yourself, with some online help from guys like those above, all the time being respectufl of the laws of phsyics in relation to truss rods, i.e., don't try and correct poor body/neck alignment by overtightening the rod, use a shim and then the saddles - the truss rod is for fine tuning at the end of the process to make sure the strings vibrate cleanly from lowest to highest fret

[DirkThrust]

From now on I think I probably will do it myself. The reason I took it back there was because it was a free warranty setup and I was a bit concerned that there was a problem with the neck. Probably over caution on my part. I've not heard of neck problems being common on Fenders but you may know different.

I've usually done it myself in the past but beyond setting the string height and intonation and a bit of minor trussrod adjustment I've never really needed to do much.

I wasn't happy the last time I had a professional setup on a Fender either so I'm beginning to think I'd be better off saving my money. That one cost me £45 and I ended up putting it right myself.

[The Burpster]

Hmmmmm sounds like your talkiing yourself into Dans book........

[DirkThrust]

Yeah I'd much rather do it myself. Is the book more comprehensive than say the setup section on the Fender site or Gary Willis' setup guide?

I've read through those and generally use them for minor stuff

Edited November 18, 2008 by AndyMartin

[The Burpster]

Yes it is, I have both his books now which would just about cover anything you need to do, think of it as a Haynes manual and you cant go far wrong.....

From changing strings to changing a fretboard and about everything in between.

Superb VFM IMO.....

[El_JimBob]

+1 to a copy of Dan's book, especially the latest revision which has got me wondering whether i should ditch my dog-eared old copy for a shiny new one

Kept it close by me when i worked in a guitar shop doing setups all day - worth it's weight in gold. And it's so chock-full of other interesting guitar building/maintenence stuff (which is also worth reading) that you may once or twice consider ditching the house and car to become a luthier!

[sgt-pluck]

OK that's enough! Where can I get this Dan's book?

Pluck

Edited November 18, 2008 by sgt-pluck

[El_JimBob]

Amazon i guess....

*edit* sorry, before i went gushing over Mr Erlewine's book, i meant to address the OP - you mentioned what looked like a rise at the body end of the neck, making playing past the 12th fret almost impossible. Check the straightness of the neck at this point, by holding the strings down (like a straight-edge) at about the 12th/15th fret and the last fret - the neck should be pretty much dead straight here and any decent kind of gap may signify a 'hump' or 'rise' which would require more 'thorough' work than just a simple setup would suffice....

Edited November 18, 2008 by El_JimBob