jonnythenotes Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 Hi folks. If I daisy chain a 600 watt cab with two speakers into a 250 watt cab with only one speaker, does the amp share the power evenly between the three speakers, or does it give 50% to each separate cab.. it's a Tecamp Puma 900 amp, and I am curious to find whether each speaker would receive 33% of what the amp is putting out, effectively giving each speaker the potential to handle 200 watts, or would it give each cab a 50% share meaning the twin speaker cab gets 150 watts to each speaker, while the 250 watt single speaker cab could get 300 watts.. pushing it into trouble.. Hope this makes sense... PS, both cabs are 8 ohms...🎸 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 By daisy-chaining the cabs you are connecting them in parallel. The cabs have the same impedance, so each cab gets half the power from the head. Each speaker in the 2-speaker cab will get 1/4 of the available power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share Posted October 26, 2017 Thanks Japan... I suspected as much, but thought the amp might just see them as as a 3 speaker cab, and not as 2 separates. So by daisy chaining them, I am in effect reducing the potential power as the single speaker cab with a 250 watt limit is now the weakest link in the chain, and couldn't handle its 50% share of potential from the amp,which would be 300 watts.. Presumably, even if the amp had 2 speakons at the back, the outcome is still the same... 50% into each cab... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 (edited) All the amp head 'sees' is the combined impedance. Any empty extra sockets make no difference. Edited October 26, 2017 by JapanAxe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share Posted October 26, 2017 Thanks Amigo.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share Posted October 26, 2017 Could you clarify one thing Japan... What I meant to say was if the amp had 2 speakon outputs, and each of the two above mentioned cabs were plugged in to these, instead of being daisy chained, would each cab still get 50% ? Sorry about the vagueness in my last post... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 The circuit is electrically identical. If you're interested in gaining an understanding of how this all works, take a look here: https://www.hometoys.com/content.php?url=/htinews/feb04/articles/polk/impedence.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CameronJ Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 Provided both cabs are rated at the same impedance, they’ll be getting an equal share of the power, regardless of whether you’re daisy chaining or have separate speakon/jack outputs on the head. The head also doesn’t care what the cabs power rating is - they’re getting fed the watts whether they like it or not. It may be useful to think of the impedance of a cab as the sum of its speakers where Ohms are concerned. For example a 2x10 rated at 8 ohms will be made up of two 16 ohm drivers which, paired together, equate to an 8 ohm load. If the 2x10 is rated at 4 ohms then each driver will be rated at 8 ohms. In a 4 ohm 4x10 cab each driver will be rated at 16 ohms, etc. This is why it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to stack an 8 ohm 2x10 on top of an 8 ohm 4x10 as the drivers in the 2x10 will be working twice as hard as those in the 4x10 and you’ll have a bit of an imbalance. In this scenario, as far as distribution of power is concerned, the solution would be to have an 8 ohm 2x10 on top of a 4 ohm 4x10. Trouble is, not all heads can handle a load lower than 4ohms total so this isn’t possible for a lot of people. Barefaced worked around the issue by developing their 2x10 cab in a 16 ohm version which allows you to stack 3 of them and only have a 4 ohm load presented to your amp. It’s a Class-D friendly solution. 3 Barefaced Two10s ain’t cheap though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share Posted October 26, 2017 Wow.... What an education... Thanks for that fellas.. Brillo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 Also. . . . it's fine running cabs that are not matched watts-wise, [u]as long as you are running within the range of the least powerfully rated cab. [/u] So, if you're running a 210 and 410 both 8 ohm, you have to ensure the power you're running your amp at to be within the range of the 210 cab. Then rather than the 210 working twice as hard the 410 will be working half as hard as it could and no damage will arise. If you want to permanently run 2 cabs then I'd match them properly but for occasional use just consider the weakest link and you'll be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 The amp is capable, with a 4 Ohm load, of delivering 900 W. With two cabs, that'll probably be extremely loud, at full tilt. Do you [i]really [/i]play with that sound level..? You'll soon hear the degradation if the cabs are being over-worked, so I'd suggest doing your daisy-chaining, and listen out for distortion from the cabs if you play loud. If you're not belting it out at full volume, there's little likelihood of any damage to the cabs. Check, though, by listening. Just my tuppence-worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share Posted October 26, 2017 Thanks to all of you for your help and advice... I now have a pretty good understanding of how it works, what to do, and more importantly, what not to do... I would never need to run the Puma anywhere near full belt, as a lot of the gigs I do are small to medium venues, it's just that an extra cab and the additional speaker surface area thickens out the sound, and warms it up a bit, and too my ears it's particularly noticeable at lower volumes. It certainly has nothing to do with volume... 🎸👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share Posted October 26, 2017 Last sentence should have read.... 'It has nothing to do with achieving high volume'. ...😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleabag Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 (edited) [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1509013823' post='3395992'] The amp is capable, with a 4 Ohm load, of delivering 900 W. With two cabs, that'll probably be extremely loud, at full tilt. Do you [i]really [/i]play with that sound level..? [/quote] Its my understanding ( mainly from info on BC ) that 900 watts is not much louder than 450 watts. I've read on here that to hear a perceived doubling of volume, you need 10 times the power. EG to hear a doubling of volume from a 200 watt amp, one would need a 2000 watt amp, not a 400 watt amp. I could have got that wrong, so hopefully a leccy guru will shoot it down or agree Edited October 27, 2017 by fleabag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 [quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1509116445' post='3396789'] Its my understanding ( mainly from info on BC ) that 900 watts is not much louder than 450 watts... [/quote] To which I'd add that 450 watts is, also, very loud indeed (depending on context, cabs used etc...)..! The maths is one thing, the volume in the room is another. It matters little to the average Joe, playing his/her bass what the amps, watts, impedances are doing; if it's loud, it's loud. There comes a point where it's loud [i]enough[/i], and [i]that [/i]point should be what to aim for, that's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleabag Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 (edited) So then, how loud is loud enough .. 200 watts ? If 450 watts is very loud indeed, then going to a 200 watt amp isnt going to make much difference, according to the maths Edited October 27, 2017 by fleabag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 Depends on the venue, obviously, and the level of volume required on stage or at the back of the arena. One good reason for having power on tap would be to keep some headroom, avoiding distortion. That wouldn't mean 'loud', though, as the whole point is to not push the amp so hard (a 900w amp cruising along, putting out a 100 or so...). One could say things have changed since 'back then', but in the '70s, I was using a Hiwatt 200w amp (DR205...) as FOH, driving two pairs of 'fridges'. It was loud enough for most halls and theatres. Bass amps, for 'power' groups, would be 100w into inefficient 4 x 12 cabs, occasionally doubled-up for the really stupidly loud 'Hawkwind' gigs. 900w..? At full tilt that would deafen any folks in the front four rows, and crease their trousers, too. No, that kind of power is not used for volume in most cases. A decent cab these days will develop nearly 100 db with 1w, 10 db more with 10w, and 10 db more again with 100w. With a1Kw we're getting close to 130 db. Is that loud enough or not..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 [quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1509121849' post='3396851'] So then, how loud is loud enough .. 200 watts ? If 450 watts is very loud indeed, then going to a 200 watt amp isnt going to make much difference, according to the maths [/quote]on top of everything there's watts and there's watts, Trace Elliot watts seem, by common consent, louder than Class D watts for instance, or could it be they just sound louder because they distort better, and then there's valve watts as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleabag Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 Yup, i agree there's discrepancies in manufacturers figures, but not enough to really bother anyone that they're down on power. If say a TE 300 was 50 watts louder than xxxx 300 watt amp, there wouldn't be a noticable difference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 [quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1509132359' post='3396959'] Yup, i agree there's discrepancies in manufacturers figures, but not enough to really bother anyone that they're down on power. If say a TE 300 was 50 watts louder than xxxx 300 watt amp, there wouldn't be a noticable difference [/quote]it's a bit more than that, my 250 watt TE seemed as loud if not louder , as my Rumble 500, but it is a difficult thing to judge, I've never run out of power with either, but I did use my Rumble as an extension cab with my Trace for a while, the speakers blew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepurpleblob Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 (edited) Wattage is a measure of power not volume. That's decibels. Asking if (say) 300 watts is loud enough doesn't make any sense. The volume you hear is a complex interaction of the power the amplifier produces and the efficiency of the cabinet. That is a lower wattage amp could quite easily be "louder" than a higher wattage amp with a less efficient speaker design. It's exactly the same as asking if a 50W bulb is bright enough - what sort of 50W bulb? It's also why guitarists can get away with a much smaller amp and still make your ears bleed. The volume maths also depends on frequency. Bass notes need much more power to produce the same volume as higher frequencies. BTW... if not obvious the wattage of the speakers means nothing. A 200W speaker is not louder than a 100W speaker. Edited October 27, 2017 by thepurpleblob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 [quote name='thepurpleblob' timestamp='1509133386' post='3396970'] Wattage is a measure of power not volume. That's decibels. Asking if (say) 300 watts is loud enough doesn't make any sense. The volume you hear is a complex interaction of the power the amplifier produces and the efficiency of the cabinet. That is a lower wattage amp could quite easily be "louder" than a higher wattage amp with a less efficient speaker design. It's exactly the same as asking if a 50W bulb is bright enough - what sort of 50W bulb? It's also why guitarists can get away with a much smaller amp and still make your ears bleed. The volume maths also depends on frequency. Bass notes need much more power to produce the same volume as higher frequencies. BTW... if not obvious the wattage of the speakers means nothing. A 200W speaker is not louder than a 100W speaker. [/quote]it also depends how the watts are measured, some manufacturers use different ways, peak and stuff like that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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