Confused about modes

[markdavid]

Am finally learning some theory (been meaning to for a while as my theory is woeful) and a bit confused about the following about modes in my theory book

"Instead of starting and ending the sequence with C , let's run it from D to D. This is still a C major scale, only its from D to D instead of C to C. In other words, this is a manner of expressing the C major scale, or better put, it is a mode of the C major scale. The name for this, the second mode of C major, is "D Dorian" "

I am probably missing something here but if you play a major scale from D to D instead of C to C is that not a D major scale ? I don't understand how it can still be a C major scale

[Grangur]

If I may be so bold, if I were you I'd work on understanding Major scales, before you get on to Modes.

A Major scale is a Major Scale because of the intervals between notes.

The C Major scale includes only the Natural notes: C D E F G A B.

The D Major, because of the intervals goes: D E F# G A B C#

So here, you can see the Major scale has the intervals W W S W W W S, where W = Whole Tone, and S = Semi-tone.

[b]C Major: C [/b] C# [b]D [/b] D# [b]E F [/b]F# [b]G[/b] G# [b] A [/b]A# [b]B C[/b]
So, here you can see a Whole tone is 2 frets, a Semi-tone is 1 fret.

[b]D Major: [/b][b]D [/b]D# [b]E [/b]F [b] F#[/b] [b] G[/b] G# [b]A [/b]A# [b]B [/b]C [b]C#[/b] [b]D[/b]

So, here you can see the intervals between the notes you play are the same as in the C Major Scale.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Grangur

[EliasMooseblaster]

The above quote is the kind of explanation that makes a lot more sense when you're sitting in front of a piano!

What they perhaps should have added is something to the effect of, "run from D to D, playing the same notes as you would for C." The point is that that you take the same run of notes, but you shift the start (and end) point so that although the notes are still the same, the intervals have changed.

Consider the white keys on a piano (which C Major conveniently sticks to):

Note C D E F G A B C
Degree I II III IV V VI VII I
Interval T T st T T T st

Note D E F G A B C D
Degree I II III IV V VI VII I
Interval T st T T T st T

(T = tone, st = semitone)

See that the two semitone intervals have shifted, even though the notes are all the same. This is enough to change the sound of the scale very noticeably. Similarly, you can shift the scale again to run from E to E, F to F, etc, and find more changes in character; some more obvious than others

Edited October 26, 2017 by EliasMooseblaster

[Grangur]

Here's a good video:

[media]http://youtu.be/UnoIfTtGpdM[/media]

Here's another to help you not worry too much about learning too many types of scales and Modes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCaSVtt3Ou8

Edited October 26, 2017 by Grangur

[markdavid]

Thank you , makes a bit more sense now, will watch the videos

[The Jaywalker]

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Edited November 28, 2017 by The Jaywalker

[Grangur]

[quote name='The Jaywalker' timestamp='1509028200' post='3396157']
Yeah, don't get too hung up on modes. Way more confusion than they're worth, especially if you're just starting out with theory ;-)
I have no idea why modes always seems to be the initial "go to" for music theory for folks from a rock/pop/band background - when it's of such little practical value and causes no end of confusion by being poorly (or incorrectly) taught in most material I've come across.
Dorian is a scale and should be learned in its own right. It's relationship to the "parent" major is irrelevant in practical application. Uptown Funk is D minor and uses Dorian.[b] Thinking of C major is pointless here.[/b]
Chord tones and common chord progressions are much more valuable to learn, plus scales that fit with them.
Major, Natural Minor (Aeolian), major and minor pentatonics and blues scale will see you through a huge amount of rock/pop stuff - which might be all you need.
How much further down the scales rabbit hole depends on what music you want to play, jazz etc
[/quote]

True, but it's always used in lessons because it's all Naturals - no sharps or flats.

In any case, every "wrong note" is only a semitone away from a "right note".


For a good book on theory, it's worth taking a look at "Music Theory for the Bass Player" by Ariane Cap.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Music-Theory-Bass-Player-Hands/dp/0996727604

https://arisbassblog.com/

[markdavid]

Thanks for the replies.
Another question and apologies if this is a dumb question as I am a bit of a theory newb, each Major scale has a relative minor scale for example C Major has A minor as its relative minor scale, the key of a song is generally determined by the notes and what scale they correspond to, if C Major and A Minor share the same notes then how do I know if a song is in the key of C Major or A Minor ?

[Grangur]

[quote name='markdavid' timestamp='1509032974' post='3396205']
Thanks for the replies.
Another question and apologies if this is a dumb question as I am a bit of a theory newb, each Major scale has a relative minor scale for example C Major has A minor as its relative minor scale, the key of a song is generally determined by the notes and what scale they correspond to, if C Major and A Minor share the same notes then how do I know if a song is in the key of C Major or A Minor ?
[/quote]
This can sometimes be difficult to know. The key signature is the same so you won't find the answer there. The general way to know this is to look at the written musical score and look at the last note of the whole piece and if it's in A the piece will end on an A. But in our world of TAB and chord sheets, we can't really be certain about this.

Edit:
There is one thing you can do; listen to the sound of a Major scale and you'll find it sound "happy". If you then play a Minor scale it sounds "sad". So, if the piece sounds sad, it's Minor, if it generally sounds happy, it's probably in a Major key.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Grangur

[The Jaywalker]

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Edited November 28, 2017 by The Jaywalker

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='markdavid' timestamp='1509032974' post='3396205']
Thanks for the replies.
Another question and apologies if this is a dumb question as I am a bit of a theory newb, each Major scale has a relative minor scale for example C Major has A minor as its relative minor scale, the key of a song is generally determined by the notes and what scale they correspond to, if C Major and A Minor share the same notes then how do I know if a song is in the key of C Major or A Minor ?
[/quote]

Can you listen to a song and reliably determine if its in a major or minor key - almost certainly. The reason why your hearing so much more definite than working it out from pure theory is because your ear will fairly reliably establish a root/key note and everything else you hear will be as a function relative to that key note.

Don't put the cart before the horse here, people played music first and then invented theory to generalise what was happening, so the theory is sometimes ambiguous without an actual ear to hear the music and determine the root and thus put it into context.

Your questions about modes and major vs minor is essentially the same question, and its the same root note ambiguity thats causing you problems trying to dry-analyse without listening - once you listen to something you will "just hear" whether its major or minor or minor with a "jazzy lilt" (dorian mode) or major with a "country twang" (mixolydian mode) etc. Yes all these things are the same 7 note pattern and the only thing that makes them different is the different root/key note.

As jaywalker said above, forget about mode derivation: all the stuff about them having the same notes but starting on a different one blah blah, it doesn't matter, its just a distraction, the important thing is how its notes relate to a key note.

Edited October 26, 2017 by bassman7755

[dlloyd]

[quote name='The Jaywalker' timestamp='1509028200' post='3396157']I have no idea why modes always seems to be the initial "go to" for music theory for folks from a rock/pop/band background - when it's of such little practical value and causes no end of confusion by being poorly (or incorrectly) taught in most material I've come across.[/quote]

I'm guessing you're young enough to have missed the worst excesses of the 1980s then. Modes were all over guitar magazines, particularly the American magazines like Guitar for the Practicing Musician. People thought, because Steve Vai and Joe Satriani talked about them, that they were the secret of shredding... then missed the point entirely and tried to apply them to diatonic theory in general.

[Kirky]

[quote name='markdavid' timestamp='1509032974' post='3396205']
how do I know if a song is in the key of C Major or A Minor ?
[/quote]

Look for the 'raised 7th'. If there's a lot of G sharps in the music (particularly in the final cadence), then it's likely to be in A minor. However these will usually or often be in the non-bass parts.

[The Jaywalker]

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Edited November 28, 2017 by The Jaywalker

[Andrej]

Hey,

Modes are not complicated; explanations tend to be.

The main problem is that most explanations are mostly theoretical and lack a practical approach that will help you easily 'hear' the modes. To make it simple, when you start playing a scale from another degree, you are basically playing a different pattern when it comes to intervals (like it was mentioned above). If you apply those patterns to the same root, you get different scales.

Try to think of it this way: There are 3 minor modes, 3 major modes, and the locrian mode (won't get into that one now)

Other than the Ionian (major) mode, the other 2 are the same but one degree of the scale is altered in relation to the major one: 

I -- Ionian: C - D - E - F - G - A - B

IV-Lydian: C - D - E - F#-G - A - B   => Same as major but the 4th is augmented.

V -Mixolydian: C - D - E - F - G - A - Bb => Same as major but you have a minor 7th.

Same with the minor modes:

VI- Aeolian: C - D - Eb - F - G - Ab - Bb

II-- Dorian: C - D - Eb - F - G - A - Bb  => Same as minor but with a major 6th.

III -Phrygian: C - Db - Eb - F - G - Ab - Bb => Same as minor but with a minor 2nd.

 

Let's forget the Locrian (VII) for now.

 

Now, play the following chord progression, one line after the other:

C / Am / F / G       (C Ionian or major)

C / Am / F / F#dis          (C major and swithces to lydian on the last one) You are augmenting the 4th from F to F#

C / Am / G / F#dis          (Lydian)

C / Am / Bb / C              (Mixolydian) Note that the minor 7th lets you use a Bb (also, G becomes Gmin)

Cm / Gm / Fm / Gm        (C minor or aeolian)

Cm / Gm /  F   / F             (Dorian) Major 6th (A) "turns" the F into F major

Cm / Bb / Fm /  Gdis (Phrygian) The minor second results in a diminished V chord.

 

What do you have to remember about this?

Three main things:

1-Seeing it as chord progressions, you can use the "mode theory" to explain or understand where you are when you switch to a chord that is out of the scale you were playing. 

2-You can clearly see that changing a note on the scale means that some major chords become minor chords, some become diminished, etc. However, you will eventually learn which chords/degrees belong in different modes in different keys, and how some small changes can change the tonality of the song.

3-Also, you can use the fretboard as a reference: If you are on C Lydian, which is the 4th mode, then it means that 1st mode sits on top of C; that would be G major. If you were playin in Mixolydian, C would be the 5th to the root of the major mode. C is the 5th to F. You can always resolve to a major mode (it's not necessary though)

Two more things:

4- See how chords change but you can always resolve to C or Cmin (depending on the mode).

5- Note the distance between chords. In the Phrygian mode, I is minor and II is major, a half step above from I (C min and Dbmaj). That happens in that situation, and C Phrygian is relative to A major. How is this helpful? Check this: If you are playing over C major and at some point you go from C  down to Bmin, then you're going from a major chord to a minor chord a half step below. Following the same logic, you would be on "B Phrygian", which happens to be the 3rd degree of G major. You would also know that C is the fourth mode of the major scale, so you would be on C Lydian.

Anyway, there's a lot to learn from these things.

Hope this is helpful.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Andrej