scrumpymike Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 I'd be chuffed if somebody referred to me as 'cute' (which isn't likely to happen!). Is it beyond the realms of possibility that the receptionist in question might be equally pleased if she knew? Or would she consider it a coded message for something sexual, sinister and diminishing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clivem Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 [quote name='scrumpymike' timestamp='1509462831' post='3399107'] I'd be chuffed if somebody referred to me as 'cute' (which isn't likely to happen!). Is it beyond the realms of possibility that the receptionist in question might be equally pleased if she knew? Or would she consider it a coded message for something sexual, sinister and diminishing? [/quote] Yep, I don't get it...... In my mind describing someone as "cute", when asked to describe their appearance, is a COMPLIMENT. Only in the fracked-up world we live in today, could it be considered to be sexually demeaning!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibob Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 [quote name='clivem' timestamp='1509461827' post='3399097'] I wasn't randomly referring to someone in their professional capacity as cute! I was specifically asked to describe her physical appearance! I don't have a photographic memory! It was the best I could do to describe her 4 weeks later, from what I did remember. I remembered the blonde hair, soft voice, couldn't remember specific facial features, just that her overall appearance was pleasing to me, and suspect would also be considered by most other males to be attractive, so I used the word "cute". PS. I'd still like to try and understand what you meant by, "a product of their time". [/quote] You didn't think that 'softly spoken and blonde hair' was enough to describe her? How would they know what 'cute' meant. A product of their time simply means that years ago, well up until relatively recently, someone would have been much less likely to be challenged for referring to someones looks in an irrelevant or inappropriate way, especially in professional settings. Perhaps the dental surgery over-reacted in asking you to take your business elsewhere, perhaps it was simply a way for you to think about how you referred to one of their staff. [quote name='scrumpymike' timestamp='1509462831' post='3399107'] Is it beyond the realms of possibility that the receptionist in question might be equally pleased if she knew? Or would she consider it a coded message for something sexual, sinister and diminishing? [/quote] Would you not think that checking if someone is ok with that before saying it should be the order of the day? And so we're down to consent. Cat-calling on the street, should that be acceptable because the person on the receiving end 'might' like it? Of course not! [quote name='clivem' timestamp='1509462975' post='3399109'] Yep, I don't get it...... In my mind describing someone as "cute", when asked to describe their appearance, is a COMPLIMENT. Only in the fracked-up world we live in today, could it be considered to be sexually demeaning!!!!!!!!!!!! [/quote] It's demeaning because the OP did so in a context that has nothing to do whatsoever with her looks or her gender, it demeans her musical output to refer to how she looks first and foremost even if they then caveat it with her musical skill. Si Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clivem Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 [quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1509463196' post='3399112'] It's demeaning because you did so in a context that has nothing to do whatsoever with her looks or her gender, it demeans her musical output to refer to how she looks first and foremost even if you effetely caveat it with her musical skill. [/quote] Eh??????? I have no idea whether the "cute" dental receptionist even plays a musical instrument...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwan Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 [quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1509463196' post='3399112'] it demeans her musical output to refer to how she looks first and foremost even if you effetely caveat it with her musical skill. [/quote] Not wanting to wade too deep into this one, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you see her first before she plays a note. What's going to come to mind first? "She's cute" or "She's a shockingly good guitar player"? Serious mountain/molehill here gents... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwan Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 [quote name='clivem' timestamp='1509463494' post='3399118'] Eh??????? I have no idea whether the "cute" dental receptionist even plays a musical instrument...... [/quote] I knew what you meant... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibob Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 [quote name='clivem' timestamp='1509463494' post='3399118'] Eh??????? I have no idea whether the "cute" dental receptionist even plays a musical instrument...... [/quote] At a quick glance I thought the OP made that comment, not you. Edited my post appropriately Si Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clivem Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 [quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1509463196' post='3399112'] How would they know what 'cute' meant. [/quote] The person who asked me to describe her was male! He would have known exactly who I had spoken to if I had only used the word "cute" to describe the receptionist. [quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1509463196' post='3399112'] A product of their time simply means that years ago, well up until relatively recently, someone would have been much less likely to be challenged for referring to someones looks in an irrelevant or inappropriate way, especially in professional settings. [/quote] So you are saying that describing someone as "cute" is irrelevant and inappropriate in the world we live in today, even when asked by another male, (in private), to describe the physical appearance of a female? Would it be OK to describe a female as "attractive" or "pretty" when asked to comment on a females physical appearance? ie. is it just the word, "cute", that has some connotation I'm not aware of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyerseve Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 [quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1509461007' post='3399091'] 1) Nope, if you're 'offended', I apologise. 2) Perhaps not many people would think to ask someones name when talking to them, a wider societal problem? 3) No-one is suggesting she was not at fault for not doing her job properly, but it still doesn't make it relevant or appropriate to refer to someone in their professional capacity as 'cute'. I imagine the OPs intention wasn't to cause any issues, but when you call out someones appearance before anything else, what do you think people are most likely to primarily consider when consuming the content? It straight away reduces the musical content (the part she's worked hardest at) to a secondary consideration. Perhaps that side of things is strong enough to then cancel out the 'looks comment', but it's already an uphill battle for female musicians in many many cases, why make it any harder? And when her looks are irrelevant to the music, why bother? It's simply a case of the OP wishing others to know he finds her stunning.... [b]And with regards to voicing an opinion that others might never see, should we not present ourselves and our thoughts in a way that is completely respectful of others regardless of whether they see it or not?[/b] I would argue that to completely respect her music, her creative output, bringing up her looks, regardless of your opinion of them, is not the way to do it. Si p.s. Covet have toured with Chon, fun fact #1 [/quote] Si, it seems that you are suggesting that everyone should sensor themselves, is this really what you are trying to say? To me this seems a very slippery slope erroding away at the cornerstones of free speech. Obviously going around harrassing and insulting people is not the way forward but to to sanatise our thoughts and speech to this level because we are afraid of people being offended on behalf of other people will lead to people ceasing to engage in dialogue for fear of causing offence. I am actually glad this thread has caused this discussion(though it clearly was not my intent) because it has brought to light other underlying societal issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibob Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 [quote name='Bigwan' timestamp='1509463534' post='3399120'] Not wanting to wade too deep into this one, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you see her first before she plays a note. What's going to come to mind first? "She's cute" or "She's a shockingly good guitar player"? Serious mountain/molehill here gents... [/quote] Yes, arguably, although that is based on the individual watching. There is almost certainly a difference in reaction to all watching when presented with the following titles: [b] Stunning girl, instrument, playing and composition!!![/b] [b] Stunning instrument, playing and composition!!![/b] Which do you think is more fair to her when presenting her playing to those who don't know her? [quote name='clivem' timestamp='1509463998' post='3399129'] The person who asked me to describe her was male! He would have known exactly who I had spoken to if I had only used the word "cute" to describe the receptionist. So you are saying that describing someone as "cute" is irrelevant and inappropriate in the world we live in today, even when asked by another male, (in private), to describe the physical appearance of a female? Would it be OK to describe a female as "attractive" or "pretty" when asked to comment on a females physical appearance? ie. is it just the word, "cute", that has some connotation I'm not aware of? [/quote] You're assuming that the male who you spoke to is straight, and has the same visual preferences in women as you do. Your use of 'cute' is unlikely to help him if, privately, he finds both receptionists 'cute'. Presumably he's the one who told you to take your business elsewhere, and so perhaps does not think in the same way as you. I'm suggesting that calling someone cute in a situation where their appearance has nothing to do with their professional standing is inappropriate in todays world, yes. You think otherwise? Again, assuming that just because you're talking to another male, one-to-one, allows you to refer to women in a particular way, however harmless you think it is, is again part of the problem. You were engaging in a professional phone call with someone who's gender is irrelevant, asked to describe someone else who likely would have been identified by referring to her as softly-spoken with blonde hair. If that didn't cover it, so be it. Si Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibob Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 [quote name='dyerseve' timestamp='1509464480' post='3399137'] Si, it seems that you are suggesting that everyone should sensor themselves, is this really what you are trying to say? To me this seems a very slippery slope erroding away at the cornerstones of free speech. Obviously going around harrassing and insulting people is not the way forward but to to sanatise our thoughts and speech to this level because we are afraid of people being offended on behalf of other people will lead to people ceasing to engage in dialogue for fear of causing offence. I am actually glad this thread has caused this discussion(though it clearly was not my intent) because it has brought to light other underlying societal issues. [/quote] Certainly not, someone suggested that we shouldn't consider whether the guitarist would be offended because she'd probably never see this post. I tried to suggest that if we wish to help someone (proliferating their music), we should do it in the most respectful way possible, and that commenting on her appearance before her music was not the way to do it, however good the intention. So perhaps it is a form of self-censorship, but only really from the point of view of what is relevant to the subject matter. Ultimately no-one is stopping you from saying anything you want, certainly not me, but what language and sentiment is more likely to help the performer? Especially given the history of the treatment of women in music and society at large, probably not calling out her appearance when her music is what matters. Si Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyerseve Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 [quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1509458620' post='3399066'] What other people were calling you is nothing to do with me - if you have a problem with them then go talk to those who were insulting to you. Please don't shift your annoyance with others onto me just because I'm the one replying to you - it's not fair in the slightest. [b]I'm sorry if you think I was being patronising, it certainly wasn't my intention, nor do I think I was. I would have been quite happy to discuss why I disagreed with you, but it doesn't seem you're interested.[/b] As for needing advice, well...if you don't want people to discuss what you think then I'd not post threads on internet forums espousing your thoughts - you are rather inviting opinion, and not everyone is going to like what you say. [/quote] as i already mentioned, the people that directed insults at me have already been made aware of what I think of them. So it wasnt your intent to be partonising, in that case I apologise and will end our dialogue with this post. Isnt it a shame that despite having made my intentions clear that you still continued to insist that I was in the wrong because my actions didnt conform with your notion of what is right and proper - do you see where Im going with this? Btw, posting on internet forums is not an invitation for advice unless you start the thread asking for it. Opinions on the topic are welcome, the topic btw is the girls musical ability. opinions on me are not needed as they irrelevant to the matter at hand. I will happily engage in discussion of most topics but if I want peoples opinions on me as a person then I will speak to people I know in real life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyKnees Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Without wading through this entire thread, there is absolutely no need or benefit whatsoever in stating that this girl is 'stunning' in the title - this is a bass player forum, not a modelling forum. You wouldn't have opened with 'Great skin tone, great bass tone' if she was black. This kind of casual objectification of an individual is unacceptable and needs calling out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clivem Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 [quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1509464526' post='3399] You're assuming that the male who you spoke to is straight, and has the same visual preferences in women as you do. Your use of 'cute' is unlikely to help him if, privately, he finds both receptionists 'cute'. [/quote] Yes, I was assuming he was straight. Bad me! And yes, I was also assuming he wasn't completely blind, because "cute" sure as hell wouldn't have been referring to the other receptionist, who looked like she lived on a diet of creme cakes, weighing at least 100kg, a hairstyle that was last fashionable in 1962 and a face that could curdle milk. Straight, gay, bi-sexual, metrosexual...... His orientation wouldn't have mattered! There is no way anyone else on this planet would have used the word "cute" to describe the "other" receptionist. And no way, that anyone hearing the word "cute" used to describe one of the two receptionists, could mistake the other as being "cute"! [quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1509464526' post='3399] I'm suggesting that calling someone cute in a situation where their appearance has nothing to do with their professional standing is inappropriate in todays world, yes. You think otherwise? [/quote] Yes, when I describe someone as "cute", "attractive, "pretty"...... It's a COMPLIMENT! I'm not coming-on to them or harassing them, I'm complimenting them on their appearance! [quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1509464526' post='3399] Again, assuming that just because you're talking to another male, one-to-one, allows you to refer to women in a particular way, however harmless you think it is, is again part of the problem. [/quote] I don't see describing someones physical appearance as "cute", "attractive" or "pretty"as being a problem to start with. So, I don't think we are ever going to find any common ground...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwan Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 [quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1509464526' post='3399139'] Yes, arguably, although that is based on the individual watching. There is almost certainly a difference in reaction to all watching when presented with the following titles: [b] Stunning girl, instrument, playing and composition!!![/b] [b] Stunning instrument, playing and composition!!![/b] Which do you think is more fair to her when presenting her playing to those who don't know her? [/quote] I'd say they're both fair, just termed differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 [quote name='dyerseve' timestamp='1509226281' post='3397478'] I'm in love! [/quote] Ahhh..I find this rather cute, dyerseve.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 (edited) [quote name='dyerseve' timestamp='1509465009' post='3399144'] So it wasnt your intent to be partonising, in that case I apologise and will end our dialogue with this post. Isnt it a shame that despite having made my intentions clear that you still continued to insist that I was in the wrong because my actions didnt conform with your notion of what is right and proper - do you see where Im going with this? [/quote] No, I don't. Edited October 31, 2017 by ahpook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clivem Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 [quote name='JellyKnees' timestamp='1509465212' post='3399145'] This kind of casual objectification of an individual is unacceptable and needs calling out. [/quote] Seriously???????? In the opinion of the OP, the physical appearance of the person featured in the video he posted is stunning...... And, you guys see this as "casual objectification". From someone who lists his interests as "fags and pies and that...", no less. Is this for real? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyKnees Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Yup, entirely. The fact that you clearly don't see the problem, and don't actually make a real point, other than to express incredulity, speaks volumes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyKnees Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 They aren't my real interests by the way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwan Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 (edited) Not everybody see's this as a "problem" - some people seem to invent problems that fit a specific argument! Is the OP Harvey Weinstein all of a sudden? Wise up guys, seriously... Edited October 31, 2017 by Bigwan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clivem Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 [quote name='JellyKnees' timestamp='1509466996' post='3399169'] The fact that you clearly don't see the problem, and don't actually make a real point, other than to express incredulity, speaks volumes. [/quote] There isn't a problem! You guys are making one where there isn't one! The OP complimented someone on their appearance, their playing, their instrument and their composition! That's it! Nothing more, nothing less! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyKnees Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 [quote name='Bigwan' timestamp='1509467111' post='3399172'] Not everybody see's this as a "problem" - some people seem to invent problems that fit a specific argument! Is the OP Harvey Weinstein all of a sudden? Wise up guys, seriously... [/quote] Many drops make an ocean. Wisdom comes in many forms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwan Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 [quote name='JellyKnees' timestamp='1509467331' post='3399177'] Many drops make an ocean. Wisdom comes in many forms. [/quote] Wow... Deep... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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