Live band mixing software

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1509445730' post='3398904']
If the inbuilt router is so rubbish then it would make more sense to replace it with a RJ45 socket and for users to supply their own. [/quote]
Err... they do have a RJ45 socket.

Edited October 31, 2017 by EBS_freak

[BigRedX]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1509445859' post='3398908']
Err... they do have a RJ45 socket.
[/quote]

So there is a version available with no inbuilt WiFi and just the RJ45 connection?

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1509445730' post='3398904']
Although IMO RJ45 connectors and Cat5 cables on the whole aren't sufficiently gig proof either.
[/quote]
I think the widespread industry use disproves that theory - however, the majority are ended with ethercon connectors as agreed, the jacks aren't particularly hard wearing for constant plugging/unplugging.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1509445932' post='3398911']
So there is a version available with no inbuilt WiFi and just the RJ45 connection?
[/quote]
No. But that's not what you said. There is an inbuilt Wifi unit AND an RJ45 connector.

[stingrayPete1977]

They've put every option on it including being able to connect to the venues Wi-Fi and BRX Still isn't happy!

To have the same kit in conventional equipment would cost many many thousands of pounds and fill a Luton van, Behringer have put it all in a box for less than £400 including a router which for me and many others has been fine, all they ask is you supply a pair of speakers to shame most P.A. systems in music venues a decade ago, I really can't fault them.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1509446155' post='3398915']
No. But that's not what you said. There is an inbuilt Wifi unit AND an RJ45 connector.
[/quote]

OK, but what I thought I had implied was that either Behringer should fit a decent WiFi router in the first place, or dispense with it altogether and just have the RJ45 socket for either a direct computer connection or an external router. Out of interest what is the recommended external router for rock-solid WiFi connectivity in a professional set up?

[Woodinblack]

For a long time I used just the built in router on the XR16, but there were a couple of times I had a problem with it, venues with a lot of people or a lot of wifi traffic, things can get spotty.
As it is 'perceived wisdom' you replace these things, one gig I just used a ethernet to the iPad, as it was close anyway, and then I got a £10 router from PC World. Made a load of difference, so it just lives in the bag now. Why behringer on something as good as these couldn't have just put the £10 router inside rather than what is there I don't know. But in general what is there does work in most situations.

Either way it is a minor blot on an amazing bit of equipment. I used the XR16 for a year or so, but then went to the X18 (£150 cheaper than the XR18 with the same functionality) because I wanted to record multitrack

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='bazztard' timestamp='1509417054' post='3398749']
you serious?

being able to mix the mic levels WHILST ON STAGE SPEAKING THROUGH THEM doesn't seem a tad easier?

get your levels from front of stage, left of stage, right of stage, centre of room, back of room in one go whilst walking with the ipad.....
[/quote]

As I say, I've not used one, but looking at some of the screen shots above you don't get much on one screen.

With the old knob type you have instant access to to gain, tone controls (3-6 ), foldback mixes and main mix (& possibly pan). I.e. around 8 per channel on a basic mixer.

ie 128 pots on a 16 channel mixer, + mute buttons etc), + master controls. All there infront of you for instant access.

Perhaps I'm just an old stick in the mud.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1509447555' post='3398928']
They've put every option on it including being able to connect to the venues Wi-Fi and BRX Still isn't happy!

To have the same kit in conventional equipment would cost many many thousands of pounds and fill a Luton van, Behringer have put it all in a box for less than £400 including a router which for me and many others has been fine, all they ask is you supply a pair of speakers to shame most P.A. systems in music venues a decade ago, I really can't fault them.
[/quote]

Because they've bodged it by fitting a sub-standard item (flakey WiFi router) in what looks like an otherwise perfect piece of kit. And not only that but it would probably only cost a few pounds more to get it right in the first place.

Edit: And you shouldn't be connecting to the venue's WiFi. That's probably why it's going wrong. The Mixer and any controlling iPads/phone should be on their own completely separate (and ideally invisible) WiFi network.

Edited October 31, 2017 by BigRedX

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1509448009' post='3398933']
OK, but what I thought I had implied was that either Behringer should fit a decent WiFi router in the first place, or dispense with it altogether and just have the RJ45 socket for either a direct computer connection or an external router. Out of interest what is the recommended external router for rock-solid WiFi connectivity in a professional set up?
[/quote]
I dont think that anybody is disagreeing with that. I suspect that the tooling is all there for the mass production of the product... and it's selling by the bucket load... so I guess they are not bothered about upgrading the unit.

In terms of professional setups - there is not industry standard... the key point is that whatever router is chosen has the ability to add external coax cables to get the aerials out of the rack that the router is undoubtedly mounted in. Whether the router is rack mountable or not, is Cisco, Ubiquiti or whatever, or even the SOHO type of products from Netgear, DLink etc...as long as the aerials are external and provide the required range, things are usually not an issue. In reality, in the industry, the majority of big gigs are still mixed from a console... but the ipad helps speed up tasks predominately in the monitoring world where the engineer can walk the stage and be next to the artists on stage. Once the gig has started, the monitor engineer is typically back behind a console.

The sole ipad mixing experience is defo geared mostly towards the consumer/prosumer market. You aren't going to see the likes of the XR18 at pro level "touring" gigs for FOH or monitoring duties...

Edited October 31, 2017 by EBS_freak

[Gottastopbuyinggear]

We bought the Soundcraft UI12, which gives 8 mic pre's and 4 aux mixes (configuring the headphone out as two of them) and it's been great. Having read that they were plagued by dodgy WiFi I also bought an external router and connected that to the mixer using Ethernet, on the basis that if WiFi via the router failed I could fall back to the mixer's hotspot. Via the external router it’s failed every time I’ve tried it, but it’s been rock solid via the mixer's built in hotspot.

To be fair I keep the iPad near the mixer most of the time, so if I was using it in a slightly larger venue than we play (pubs) it might have difficulty, but for what we need and the way we use it it’s been perfect.

[irvined]

Hi,

We had a UI16 and an external router - no problem at all.

Have replaced with a UI24R and same external router. Works without problems. In fact the UI16 worked fine without the external router but I had heard about wifi problems so bought one just to be safe.

It 'lives' ontop of one PA speaker, in the handle cutout on the top.

Regards,

Doug

[Woodinblack]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1509448207' post='3398936']
As I say, I've not used one, but looking at some of the screen shots above you don't get much on one screen.

With the old knob type you have instant access to to gain, tone controls (3-6 ), foldback mixes and main mix (& possibly pan). I.e. around 8 per channel on a basic mixer.

ie 128 pots on a 16 channel mixer, + mute buttons etc), + master controls. All there infront of you for instant access.
[/quote]

Having used both types, the iPad version is much faster for accessing things, as well as better.

You get instant adjustments of the levels of all the channels, as well as the 4 effects channel returns (which I use live a lot), balance, gain. mutes (including muting groups), solo channels.
You have a set of buttons down the side, so those sliders can be main our or any of the 6 buses or effects channels. You have full spectrum analyser on each channel or all channels on one press, and either a 31 channel graphic or a parametric eq (with the spectrum behind it so you can see the effect). The at a few more clicks full compressor, gate, expander, controls for any channel, and another page of routing options.

All of that on a pad that clips to your microphone stand so you can adjust when you go along, or your mate in the audience can wander to the back of the hall to adjust without you having to route all the cables there

It is so much faster to make adjustments on that (and the adjustments you can make are so much more detailed) than you can on a mixer with knobs that there is very little comparison. Obviously if knobs are important, you can step up to the X32 range, and you get the knobs with the other options.

If you are a stick in the mud and happy with knobs then fine, stick with them. I was quite happy with them until I tried one of the behringers, and then I realised just how restrictive they were and wouldn't go back.

[Woodinblack]

[quote name='Gottastopbuyinggear' timestamp='1509449126' post='3398954']
Having read that they were plagued by dodgy WiFi I also bought an external router and connected that to the mixer using Ethernet, on the basis that if WiFi via the router failed I could fall back to the mixer's hotspot. Via the external router it's failed every time I've tried it, but it's been rock solid via the mixer's built in hotspot.

To be fair I keep the iPad near the mixer most of the time, so if I was using it in a slightly larger venue than we play (pubs) it might have difficulty, but for what we need and the way we use it it's been perfect.
[/quote]

I did too - didn't have a problem until one venue where I had the problem all the time, and it wasn't a distance thing, it is that the wifi can only handle 4 connections, so with lots of phones with their wifi on, they are constantly polling any other wifi and trying to connect.
Seems odd that you external wifi is having a problem - does it connect and drop or just fail to connect? I just use one of these: https://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/computing-accessories/networking/network-routers-and-switches/wireless-adapters/tp-link-tl-wr802n-portable-travel-router-10136769-pdt.html

[crez5150]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1509445730' post='3398904']
It seems stupid, when the cost of a better router is insignificant compared with what it costs to build the mixer in the first place. That's Behringer for you. And why would you want to test with a set up you aren't going to use live? If the inbuilt router is so rubbish then it would make more sense to replace it with a RJ45 socket and for users to supply their own. That way Behringer could save even more money. Although IMO RJ45 connectors and Cat5 cables on the whole aren't sufficiently gig proof either.
[/quote]

Actually the issues generally arise because of placement by the users and other wi-fi frequencies . a lot of bands tend to place the box at the back of the stage which is usually cluttered with cabs, cables and other stuff.... place in line of sight as you would with most RF equipment and you will have much better results.

Edited October 31, 2017 by crez5150

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1509448231' post='3398937']


Because they've bodged it by fitting a sub-standard item (flakey WiFi router) in what looks like an otherwise perfect piece of kit. And not only that but it would probably only cost a few pounds more to get it right in the first place.

Edit: And you shouldn't be connecting to the venue's WiFi. That's probably why it's going wrong. The Mixer and any controlling iPads/phone should be on their own completely separate (and ideally invisible) WiFi network.
[/quote]

Mines never gone wrong, I've never used the client Wi-Fi function but it's there if you want it. I'd you connect four devices no one else can link to it and they'd need to know what app to download.

This is all making problems out of nothing, plug it in, open the app and away you go "if" it ever lost connection and mine hasn't in two years the desk carries on with the existing mix regardless.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1509450820' post='3398975']
Actually the issues generally arise because of placement by the users and other wi-fi frequencies . a lot of bands tend to place the box at the back of the stage which is usually cluttered with cabs, cables and other stuff.... place in line of sight as you would with most RF equipment and you will have much better results.
[/quote]

I was going to go into this - it wouldn't surprise me if there guys running 2.4Ghz wireless packs which given, there's only 3 channels free from inter-modulation, 1, 3 and 11... leaves things open to interference.

Similarly, if you are in a venue with wifi, or particularly somewhere with multi wifi pops and repeaters etc, the likelihood of a problem is increased.

Then, when you soundcheck, everything is ok... but then the punters come in with their phones constantly polling the airwaves looking for wifi access points...

And of course, as crez points out, placement is kind. Sticking wifi points near any fader circuits, anything that generates large amounts of EM etc... it all adds to the problems.

It's no different to co-coordinating wireless mics really... you can't just throw up mics and iems etc on random frequencies and hope that they all talk fine. They won't.

[SubsonicSimpleton]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1509448231' post='3398937']
Because they've bodged it by fitting a sub-standard item (flakey WiFi router) in what looks like an otherwise perfect piece of kit. And not only that but it would probably only cost a few pounds more to get it right in the first place.
[/quote]
IIRC the wifi router has low transmission power in order to allow the unit to be certified worldwide (different territories have different regulations on RF transmitters yada yada yada) - it is a bit disappointing, but given Behringers business model of low margins and economy of scale it makes perfect sense from their viewpoint as a manufacturer to ensure there are no territory dependant variations in the circuitry.

[skidder652003]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1509450849' post='3398976']
Mines never gone wrong, I've never used the client Wi-Fi function but it's there if you want it. I'd you connect four devices no one else can link to it and they'd need to know what app to download.

This is all making problems out of nothing, plug it in, open the app and away you go "if" it ever lost connection and mine hasn't in two years the desk carries on with the existing mix regardless.
[/quote]
This, it gets placed in front of the bass drum, the drummer has the tablet to hand if anything needs adjusting on the fly, its never lost signal and if it did, well it just stays on its last settings anyway.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='skidder652003' timestamp='1509477094' post='3399307']

This, it gets placed in front of the bass drum, the drummer has the tablet to hand if anything needs adjusting on the fly, its never lost signal and if it did, well it just stays on its last settings anyway.
[/quote]

¡Exactamente!

[51m0n]

XR18 user here, with an external router to be sure I can mix from anywhere in the room.

Yes the external router requirement is a slight PIA but its still fine, this is a 7 piece funk band (lots of percussion channels, horn section etc etc). We use a mixture of monitors and IEMs.

If you really need to know why this is better than an old school desk, please show me an old school desk with full featured dynamics on every channel, a choice of graphic eq, or 5 band parametric on every channel, 6 monitor outs (with dynamics processing and eq on), 4 slots for fx. RTA on every input and output. Instant recall of more setups than I can count. Yada yada....

I can do mixes along the lines of those that would be way beyond a serious old school project studio from back in the days when those old desks were the business.

On top of which I can let the band set up their own monitors.

And finally I can get an 18 track recording straight to computer of the entire gig whenever I want with my laptop.

Truly redefined mixing live for me, totally. If you can't see a reason you'd want that kind of power that's fine, but if you haven't used one in anger a few times you probably should find a way to do so before concluding that they aren't the absolute canine undercarriage.