Defretted maple fretboard.

[Cato]

I'm not sure I'm posting this in the right forum, but...

I'm seriously considering having my Squier VM70s Jazz defretted.

I've heard that maple doesn't make the best fretless boards because it's a bit soft and fragile, but my thinking is that these Squiers have a thick ,rock hard, coating of some sort covering the wood which I'm pretty sure is a lot tougher than rosewood, possibly even tougher than ebony.

So, is it going to work as a fretless, or am I being stupid?

[discreet]

I don't know, but it may be an idea to pick up an affordable fretless neck and see if you like it. Then you have options.

[Cato]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1509573911' post='3400073']
I don't know, but it may be an idea to pick up an affordable fretless neck and see if you like it. Then you have options.
[/quote]

That also occured to me, but from my preliminary research a fretless neck is going to cost as much or more than the defret.

Plus if I go for the defret I can justify getting myself a spiffy new fretted Jazz.

[discreet]

Ahh, you've thought this through. As long as you're getting another bass, I'd go for it... what could possibly go wrong?

[Cato]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1509574416' post='3400079']
Ahh, you've thought this through. As long as you're getting another bass, I'd go for it... what could possibly go wrong?
[/quote]

Absolutely.

Originally I was looking at getting a fretless Sire, but while I was looking at those I started gassing for a full blooded 'super jazz'.

Then I start thinking 'well I've got this Squier Jazz, with upgraded bridge/pickups/electrics that's not going to get played if I get the new Jazz, so why not have that defretted, thus having my cake and eating it'.

[Manton Customs]

Usually Maple boards are sprayed after the frets are installed, so if you defret you'll likely have bare patches where the frets used to sit. You'll also probably chip the surrounding finish removing the frets. It's also normal to have to sand/true up the board after removing frets...which will remove the finish. So you'll likely need to refinish the board after performing the defret. That's if you want it to look nice anyway.

[Cato]

[quote name='Manton Customs' timestamp='1509610582' post='3400199']
Usually Maple boards are sprayed after the frets are installed, so if you defret you'll likely have bare patches where the frets used to sit. You'll also probably chip the surrounding finish removing the frets. It's also normal to have to sand/true up the board after removing frets...which will remove the finish. So you'll likely need to refinish the board after performing the defret. That's if you want it to look nice anyway.
[/quote]

That's useful to know.

If I do go down this route then I'm planning to get a local luthier to do the work, so hopefully he'll be aware of the potential pitfalls of chipping/removing the original finish.

[dmccombe7]

Think i would try and pick up a cheap fretless first to try rather than defret an already good bass.

Dave

[Beedster]

[quote name='Cato' timestamp='1509618068' post='3400277']


That's useful to know.

If I do go down this route then I'm planning to get a local luthier to do the work, so hopefully he'll be aware of the potential pitfalls of chipping/removing the original finish.
[/quote]

To do it well will cost more than the £75 or so you'll need to pay on eBay to buy an equivalent quality fretless Neck, there’s a thread on here somewhere about low cost maple fretless necks, worth checking out.

[Grangur]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1509619789' post='3400298']


To do it well will cost more than the £75 or so you'll need to pay on eBay to buy an equivalent quality fretless Neck, there’s a thread on here somewhere about low cost maple fretless necks, worth checking out.
[/quote]
This /\

That's £75 to stand still in terms of value. I'd definitely get another neck made if it were mine.

[BigRedX]

The finish on a maple fingerboard isn't that hard wearing. It tends to last reasonably well on a fretted instrument only because very little actually comes in contact the board itself. The string stop at the frets and only part of the finger will touch it. Keep and play one for long enough and eventually you'll start to see finger wear patterns on the most commonly used notes. However as soon as you remove the frets it's a different story. Unless you plan to use super smooth flat wound strings, they will tear through the finish in no time, and even flat wound strings will eat into the finish on a fretless board quicker than one with frets on it.

[Beedster]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1509620267' post='3400311']
The finish on a maple fingerboard isn't that hard wearing. It tends to last reasonably well on a fretted instrument only because very little actually comes in contact the board itself. The string stop at the frets and only part of the finger will touch it. Keep and play one for long enough and eventually you'll start to see finger wear patterns on the most commonly used notes. However as soon as you remove the frets it's a different story. Unless you plan to use super smooth flat wound strings, they will tear through the finish in no time, and even flat wound strings will eat into the finish on a fretless board quicker than one with frets on it.
[/quote]

....which is why to do it well costs a lot of cash, you need a very hard and extremely even surface

[Beedster]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1509620120' post='3400304']

This /\

That's £75 to stand still in terms of value
[/quote]

Good point

[Cato]

Cheers for the advice folks.

The luthier i contacted has also said he doesn't want to do it because he thinks removing the frets will damage the finish which, long story short, would take a lot of work to rectify and end up costing considerably more than the bass is worth,

So, time for another look at fretless necks.

[Manton Customs]

[quote name='Cato' timestamp='1509637301' post='3400519']
Cheers for the advice folks.

The luthier i contacted has also said he doesn't want to do it because he thinks removing the frets will damage the finish which, long story short, would take a lot of work to rectify and end up costing considerably more than the bass is worth,

So, time for another look at fretless necks.
[/quote]

A wise man . The approach would be something like -

Remove frets
Fill slots
True up fingerboard and completely remove finish due to the gaps the frets will have left and possible damage
Apply a hard finish such as Epoxy
Level the epoxy.

So yeah, it'd be pricey.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Manton Customs' timestamp='1509644927' post='3400588']
A wise man . The approach would be something like -

Remove frets
Fill slots
True up fingerboard and completely remove finish due to the gaps the frets will have left and possible damage
Apply a hard finish such as Epoxy
Level the epoxy.

So yeah, it'd be pricey.
[/quote]

How hard a finish is epoxy? How many hours of fretless playing with round-wound strings would you get out of it before the fingerboard needs true-ing up again and re-epoxying?

[Manton Customs]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1509645523' post='3400593']
How hard a finish is epoxy? How many hours of fretless playing with round-wound strings would you get out of it before the fingerboard needs true-ing up again and re-epoxying?
[/quote]

Decent stuff like West System is very hard and would withstand roundwounds for a long time. West System has a Shore rating of 83, which is apparently the same as a builders hard hat! It's pretty indestructible stuff.

[Cato]

[quote name='Manton Customs' timestamp='1509644927' post='3400588']


A wise man . The approach would be something like -

Remove frets
Fill slots
True up fingerboard and completely remove finish due to the gaps the frets will have left and possible damage
Apply a hard finish such as Epoxy
Level the epoxy.

So yeah, it'd be pricey.
[/quote]

Thanks again for taking the time to reply.

Expert advice from professionals such as yourself on things like this make this forum invaluable.

[discreet]

[quote name='Manton Customs' timestamp='1509660489' post='3400739']
Decent stuff like West System is very hard and would withstand roundwounds for a long time. West System has a Shore rating of 83, which is apparently the same as a builders hard hat! It's pretty indestructible stuff.
[/quote]

Just Off Topic briefly... could you use this stuff to finish a bass body..?

[Manton Customs]

[quote name='Cato' timestamp='1509660892' post='3400746']
Thanks again for taking the time to reply.

Expert advice from professionals such as yourself on things like this make this forum invaluable.

[/quote]

No problem, I'm always happy to talk techy/building related stuff!


[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1509661053' post='3400747']
Just Off Topic briefly... could you use this stuff to finish a bass body..?
[/quote]

Actually yes, but I haven't personally tried it on anything like a body. There's a couple of guys over on Talkbass who have though, they were using it as a wiping varnish (like Truoil) by thinning it and rubbing it on. So in place of a thin oil type finish, yes it's quite doable.

The same method may work for a gloss finish, but it would be quite difficult to get the application right without creating flaws and witness lines. When applying it to a fretboard a common method is to use a damn round the fingerboard then pour epoxy, this method of application obviously wouldn't work on a more complicated shape like a bass body though. So it'd have to be done in multiple coats, which is likely to cause witness lines (hazy, cloudy, type patterns where one coats meets another).

[discreet]

[quote name='Manton Customs' timestamp='1509666537' post='3400793']
...yes, but I haven't personally tried it on anything like a body... ...it'd have to be done in multiple coats, which is likely to cause witness lines...
[/quote]

OK great, thanks very much for the info.