Jazz - what's it all about ?

[Bilbo]

[quote name='dangerboy' post='327668' date='Nov 12 2008, 02:59 PM']What if you like listening to some jazz, dislike listening to some other jazz, but find jazz musicians, fans and students almost universally tedious and self-regarding? Obviously that's not unique to jazz, but they really do write the manual from which other musical bores learn.[/quote]

With respect, DB, and this isn' t particularly directed at you, I find it ironic that so many non-jazz musicians refer to us as tedious and self-regarding (or something of that nature) but then go and rave about musicians who write songs with what they consider to be really important messages about 'life' or 'the streets', who are millionaires who drive around in limos or flash cars, stay in hotels that the rest of us couldn't even work in never mind stay at, attend celebrity dos, appear on posters, badges and t-shirts and spend the remainder of their time generally being pampered by the endlessly sychophantic.

Personally, give me a man or woman who just wants to play their instrument really well anytime.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='The Funk' post='327808' date='Nov 12 2008, 06:03 PM']That song is so hard to play well. I've never played a good version - only train wrecks.[/quote]

Its a 'less is more' tune. Just play the roots and let the harmonies speak for themselves. Give the notes space to breath.

[The Funk]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='328216' date='Nov 13 2008, 10:41 AM']Its a 'less is more' tune. Just play the roots and let the harmonies speak for themselves. Give the notes space to breath.[/quote]

I get the guys to play the Freddie King arrangement of [i]T'Ain't Nobody's Business If I Do[/i] instead these days. It's got some nice gospel/blues/jazz changes.

[Bass_In_Yer_Face]

(Puts Tin Helmet On)

I don't get or like jazz (nice!) or Jaco Pastorious for that matter.

[Bilbo]

I was stood waiting for a bus this morning listening to Bill Stewart drumming and thinking about this thread. It occured to me that one of the things that is distinctly different in jazz than it is in most other forms of popular music is the use of implication over statement. This is, as always, not an absolute but I'll try and explain what I mean.

What I am referring to is a range of things really. Firstly, the time pulse. With many performances, the momentum of a jazz performance is not created by repetition in one area of the music. In, say, Funk, the bass lines can be repetitive, or the drum part, or the rhythm guitar or, sometimes, all three. In jazz, it is less likely that the pulse is actually stated for any significant length of time by one instrument. Riffs are implied, not stated, they are toyed with not just repeated. Chords are changed and substituted each time they are played, Melodies are twisted and realigned with the pulse, harmonies altered and altered again. Improvisations can be thematic and use the core of a compositions themes as a launching pad but rarely are these themes actually stated outside of the head. In rock, Metal, Folk, Pop etc the bass often plays and plays around the root note and or chord tones. Jazz bass playing does do this but it also tends to provide more of a counterpoint, changing its emphasis note by note, phrase by phrase, bar by bar.

So, when you are listening to jazz, you need to kind of put that pulse in for yourself, define the core harmonies, themes etc and keep these in mind so that you can hear what is going on. Take any jazz standard that you know the melody of (e.g. My Favourite Things) and then listen to the performance whilst keeping that melody going in your head. As the players take it away from the familiar theme, you will be able to hear a relationship between the tune you know and the solo. One of my favourite things to hear is when a drummer uses the rhythmic phrasing of a melody to construct his drum solo. What previously sounded random thrashing, suddenly sounds totally logical.

Eventually, you will be able to do this having only heard the main themes once and then you will really get a sense of what it is all about.

What it is not is randon noodling. You have no idea how much it irritates me when people mention random noodling in connection with jazz. I keep a list.

[Bass-ic]

NO DAZZLE JO!

[wateroftyne]

I don't like jazz. It's just a load of random noodling.

[Bilbo]

Some people put notches on the handle of their guns when people cross them.

I just get a carrot.

[steve]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='328387' date='Nov 13 2008, 02:36 PM']So, when you are listening to jazz, you need to kind of put that pulse in for yourself, define the core harmonies, themes etc and keep these in mind so that you can hear what is going on. Take any jazz standard that you know the melody of (e.g. My Favourite Things) and then listen to the performance whilst keeping that melody going in your head. As the players take it away from the familiar theme, you will be able to hear a relationship between the tune you know and the solo. One of my favourite things to hear is when a drummer uses the rhythmic phrasing of a melody to construct his drum solo. What previously sounded random thrashing, suddenly sounds totally logical.[/quote]

I think that's the kind of pointer I needed

[Clarky]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='328398' date='Nov 13 2008, 02:48 PM']I don't like jazz. It's just a load of random noodling.[/quote]
You sir appear to be indulging in that well-known sport, Bilbo baiting!

[Lemuel Beam]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='327285' date='Nov 12 2008, 08:51 AM']That sucked. Big time.[/quote]

Bilbo, are you referring to the Bad Plus version of SLTS? Nooooo!! it's brilliant!

Mick

[Lemuel Beam]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='327628' date='Nov 12 2008, 02:25 PM']Don't know why everyone slags off Mustang Sally, its a classic soul tune by a classic soul singer.[/quote]

indeed ..but I've heard sh*t versions by wedding/cover bands who don't know how (or can't be bothered) to reproduce the groove properly..

M

[Guest]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='328409' date='Nov 13 2008, 03:09 PM']Some people put notches on the handle of their guns when people cross them.

I just get a carrot.[/quote]


Never, ever bend over in front of an angry jazz fan armed with a carrot

Bilbo just shoot me please! Bilbo why do i like 'A kind of blue' ? is it not real jazz or is it some simplistic form that a mere mortal like myself understand? I have listened to John coltrane and did'nt really like it. Perhaps i need guidance or to listen with a carrot pre-inserted.


Scary jazz carrot!

Edited November 13, 2008 by steve-norris

[Bass-ic]

jazz.....

[Bass-ic]

....noodle....Innit!

[MacDaddy]

I went to a talk with Peter King (jazz alto sax player) earlier today. Prodigiously talented musician, good stories, great insights. Glad I went. Didn't like any of his bebop stuff, but the Bartok arrangements were good.

Can't believe Bilbo has not mentioned London Jazz week. Richard Bona is playing

[urb]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='328621' date='Nov 13 2008, 07:38 PM']Can't believe Bilbo has not mentioned London Jazz week. Richard Bona is playing [/quote]

Erm, I wrote all the stuff here ('cos its my job):

[url="http://www.timeout.com/london/music/features/6122/London_Jazz_Festival_2008_preview.html"]http://www.timeout.com/london/music/featur...08_preview.html[/url]

- and I swear there is something listed over the 10 nights that will appeal to even the most cynical jazz-hater - there are simply far too many good gigs on - I'm seeing Herbie Hancock on Saturday night among other things.

M

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='urb' post='328627' date='Nov 13 2008, 07:46 PM']- and I swear there is something listed over the 10 nights that will appeal to even the most cynical jazz-hater - there are simply far too many good gigs on[/quote]

+1

I'd love to see John McLaughlin, but I'm a poor impoverished student (again) and have a rehearsal on the 23rd.

I'm gonna try catch some of the free stuff though, including John Etheridge (for free!) on the 22nd

Edited November 14, 2008 by MacDaddy

[mcgraham]

[quote]What it is not is randon noodling.[/quote]

I would take issue with that statement Bilbo. I do love good jazz, but I would hasten to point out that jazz [i]can [/i]descend into random noodling even at the best of times with the best musicians, never mind musicians who are just starting out in jazz or who are prone to pretentious behaviour. I think we must remember that jazz is just an art form, and thus it is only as good as its representatives.

Mark

[alexclaber]

[quote name='steve-norris' post='328561' date='Nov 13 2008, 06:27 PM']Bilbo just shoot me please! Bilbo why do i like 'A kind of blue' ? is it not real jazz or is it some simplistic form that a mere mortal like myself understand?[/quote]

You like a Kind Of Blue because you like it. Simple!

I think jazz suffers as a genre just as metal does - both are genres in which is hard to write good music that remains accessible. I can't stand the vast majority of metal but some of it IMO is absolutely fantastic (Sepulture - Roots, Pantera - Vulgar Display of Power, Metallica - Master of Puppets).

Alex

[tauzero]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='326701' date='Nov 11 2008, 01:08 PM']But this is the bottom line for me; a neatly polished version of Mustang Sally is NOT better than bad jazz, not because it is not good, because it is not professional, not tight, not well delivered etc. It is not better because I know what's coming and don't care![/quote]
You haven't heard our version of Mustang Sally with the slap bass and the rapping bit in the middle.

Actually, I did work out a rap section for "Knocking on heaven's door". That goes down a treat at folk clubs.

[saibuster]

[quote name='Oscar South' post='326448' date='Nov 11 2008, 01:29 AM']Years ago this was the song that turned me onto Jazz.. [url="http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/134504/03%20Moanin%27.mp3"]http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/134504/03%20Moanin%27.mp3[/url]

Still my all time favourite jazz track.[/quote]

this is really good. can you tell me the name of this track please?

[Guest]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='328924' date='Nov 14 2008, 10:25 AM']You like a Kind Of Blue because you like it. Simple!
Alex[/quote]


I can be a little slow on the up take sometimes but i draw the line at simple

[Bilbo]

[quote name='steve-norris' post='328561' date='Nov 13 2008, 06:27 PM']Bilbo just shoot me please! Bilbo why do i like 'A kind of blue' ? is it not real jazz or is it some simplistic form that a mere mortal like myself understand?[/quote]

You like the best selling and most influential jazz recording of all time? So what's the problem? (So what's the first track, as well! )

Its real, mate. You are a jazz fan. Deal with it.

[bassace]

Yea, sure I've done the Kind of Blue stuff and its influence has to be acknowledged.

How's this for a Saturday stirrer? There is one, just one, CD that will bring a smile to everybody's face, that even the most hardened jazz-haters will enjoy - The Atomic Mr Basie. Go try!