Jazz - what's it all about ?

[originalfunkbrother]

Correct me if I am wrong but are you saying Stanley Clarke is not a great jazz bassplayer, as far as you're concerned?

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='funkygreega' post='326235' date='Nov 10 2008, 07:59 PM']Correct me if I am wrong but are you saying Stanley Clarke is not a great jazz bassplayer, as far as you're concerned?[/quote]

I think he's saying he's a good bass player, but he doesn't like his music. Neither do I.

I don't like his tone either. :x

[urb]

[quote name='Wil' post='325966' date='Nov 10 2008, 03:05 PM']Basically, what it boils down to is, if you don't appriciate jazz there is something wrong with you, you'll never be a great musician and you'll spend your life a mere shadow of your potential.[/quote]

OK here's the thing...

Most people's perceptions of jazz is that it is A. elitist, B. stereotyped and C inaccurate based on the previous two. What most people who say they don't like jazz, hate it or misunderstand it is that have never actually had a positive experience listening to it. Personally I saw a jazz quartet play when I was 16 years old. And I thought it kicked ass. I had been a big fan of Slayer, Living Colour, Frank Zappa, Steve Vai, Faith no more, Anthrax, Frankie Goes To Hollywood, Pink Floyd, the Beatles, Bob Dylan, Elvis etc etc before that and to me as a young bass player I heard something in jazz that I hadn't heard in other forms of music before that.

Improvisation.

That's the one single difference between 'jazz' in all its hundreds of forms, and 'other' music.

As soon as you realise that improvising is a skill that be used in any genre of music, as a universal music skill that goes alongside all the other skills in devleoping a language then suddenly a whole universe of musical possibilities opens up for you.

it's not about right or wrong it's actually about having the most direct means available to you of expressing yourself - and as jazz musicians have ben doing this for all their musical lives sometimes that expression can get pretty extreme - but there are a hundred different shades of jazz - some take in metal, rap, funk, soul, electronics, swing, folk, blues - it's so huge that to dismiss it is to miss out on one of the richest and most rewarding musical art forms known to man.

There was a very good article in the Grauniad last Friday about Alexis Petredis (top rock journo) going on a voyage of discovery, i.e. he always hated jazz but wants to give it aother go - it's weel worth reading here:

[url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/nov/07/london-jazz-festival"]http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/nov/0...n-jazz-festival[/url]

Also - if you don't like what hadrien feraud is doing don't worry about it - no one said you had to!

I hope some of that is useful - it really doesn't matter if you don't like jazz or have no inclination to get into it - just don't think that it's all something mysterious and elitist it really isn't - most people who play it are very down to earth individuals who make huge sacrifices to play it because they love it so much.

Cheers

Mike

[Jebo1]

Well, I'm very much aware of the subtleties of jazz but I just don't like it.

The only way to understand jazz is to learn the forms, easiest way is to listen to the tracks with the fake book (as you would do with a classical score for example). I find lot of jazz unlistenable, and I find it tiresome.

The whole intellectualisation of jazz is the 20th Centuries legitimisation of 'our' music (blues to jazz to rock and roll and beyond), and is really America's most cerebral export.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Jebo1' post='326311' date='Nov 10 2008, 09:30 PM']and is really America's most cerebral export.[/quote]
late moderism, C Greenberg et al? ?




Edit: sorry, bit obscure.

Edited November 10, 2008 by LukeFRC

[Guest]

I have no idea what jazz is about, i do however own 'A kind of blue' ( A fantastic recording on SACD) and think it's genius. The first listen was like the first play of 'whats going on' and i know I wil be playing it in another 20 years.

So far so good but i have not really found much else which i like, i do like some jazzy french stuff like St Germain and Gotan Project but other famous jazz recordings have left me cold. I do like a lot of classical music so i am not a complete philistine, some jazz recordings really should never have been IMO, some things while great entertainment while alone or with a small group of like minded individuals really should not be made public.

[Prosebass]

[quote name='steve-norris' post='326322' date='Nov 10 2008, 09:46 PM']some things while great entertainment while alone or with a small group of like minded individuals really should not be made public. [/quote]

Brilliant , you make it sound like some evil depraved act against decency....which I suppose it is to some.

[Oscar South]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='325923' date='Nov 10 2008, 01:58 PM']If you ever do get into it at any stage, it is amazing how two-dimensional all the stuff you used to like will sound. Its just a different way of listening and very rewarding.[/quote]

I think that's a pretty misguided comment, I love, listen to, play and study jazz and I certainly understand it. I also understand and enjoy many other genres equally as much, there is as much beauty in simplicity as there is in complexity, just because something is more difficult (on any level) does not make it by nature better.

Edited November 10, 2008 by Oscar South

[MoJoKe]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='326098' date='Nov 10 2008, 05:25 PM']The reason I asked is that I don't want to spend 3 years learning the language of Jazz to find out that I was right all along and that it was utter sh1te.[/quote]

Got me really laughing out loud!!!! (and I like some jazz... Not much, I grant you, and I still don't really "get" it!!)

[MacDaddy]

Many moons ago, I studied Jazz at college on a 2 year course, but no means an expert but I'm aware of the different genres. But this to me is [i]jazz[/i].

The test is how much can you watch?
(if you make it to 6 mins what the French Connection UK is going on?)

[Exile252]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='326436' date='Nov 11 2008, 12:25 AM']

Many moons ago, I studied Jazz at college on a 2 year course, but no means an expert but I'm aware of the different genres. But this to me is [i]jazz[/i].

The test is how much can you watch?
(if you make it to 6 mins what the French Connection UK is going on?)[/quote]

hehe, it was going alright (well not enough to make me stop it) untill the 1 minute mark where everyone, except one of the sac players decides to stop, causes the drummer to go completely off and the guitarist starts making up random chords, which sounded quite like cats being run over by cars.

[Oscar South]

Years ago this was the song that turned me onto Jazz.. [url="http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/134504/03%20Moanin%27.mp3"]http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/134504/03%20Moanin%27.mp3[/url]

Still my all time favourite jazz track.

[acidbass]

Someone (I'm not sure who) once said that [i]Jazz is one of the few genres where the people playing it enjoy themselves more than the people listening to it[/i]

From my time playing in a free improv Jazz ensemble, I tend to agree. It is truly great fun, but I wouldn't like to be on the other side of the PA speakers! That was however extremely experimental music, I know there are a lot more structured and listenable forms out there!

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Oscar South' date='Nov 10 2008, 10:04 PM' post='326337']
I think that's a pretty misguided comment, I love, listen to, play and study jazz and I certainly understand it. I also understand and enjoy many other genres equally as much, there is as much beauty in simplicity as there is in complexity, just because something is more difficult (on any level) does not make it by nature better.
[/quote

No argument - jazz can be simple too! Levels of 'difficulty' are irrelevant - my comment was just an observation that many musicians don't do the total listening thing, whether they are supposed to or not. It's depth that matters. Many other genres can be deep too, I have no problem acknowledging that, but most of the stuff I listened to before I got into jazz (rock, HM & prog. rock) doesn't work for me any more. It's just not very satisfying.

As for players enjoying themselves more than audiences... have you ever WATtCHED any mainstream pop bands, They do like themselves, don't they

[waynepunkdude]

I think Jazz as an art form takes itself WAY too seriously, I'm sure there is a place for that it's just not for me.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='326533' date='Nov 11 2008, 09:43 AM']I think Jazz as an art form takes itself WAY too seriously, I'm sure there is a place for that it's just not for me.[/quote]

That could apply to any one of 100 genres - was Morrisey in it for a laugh? Leonard Cohen? Johnny Cash? Kraftwerk? Manic Street Preachers? 98% of HM?

Jazz is absolutely chock full of humour but, as bit like my earlier post, if you don't get the language the humour is presented in, you'll miss it.

[bassace]

Jazz, like any other art form has its individual limits of understanding. Take art itself - we can all understand a Constable and most old portraits; for some, the Impressionists may be a bit challenging. Plenty of people just about get Picasso and Dali etc. Rothko? - fewer still, and so it goes. There are several examples of modern art that I just can't begin to understand but I concede that there are people out there who do understand and enjoy those works.

So it is with jazz. What's not to like about some of the early stuff, Louis Armstrong for example? Then we get into 'modern jazz' (actually 50 years old at least) much of which is readily understandable, although some of the extended solos were a bit tedious. Thelonious, Ornette, Coltrane - bit more challenging; and so it goes.

There is so much in jazz and so much to learn and enjoy. There's something for everyone.

[DirkThrust]

To hear some really good Jazz you should listen to the early stuff that was played in the clubs of New Orleans and Chicago in the 1920s by people like Jelly Roll Morton. If you're not impressed with that then you probably haven't got a pulse.

[alexclaber]

Jazz isn't just bebop and fusion - the earlier stuff is much more accessible and far harder swinging - real dance music!

And of later stuff, check out "Mingus - Better git it in your Soul" for a nice introduction to jazz. Forget all that silly widdling, check out a swinging band with an attitude and soloists that play tunes!

Bass player-centric modern jazz is enough to turn anyone off jazz!

Alex

[Lemuel Beam]

"...but my attempts to be dazzled by A Love Supreme have been stymied ever since someone pointed out to me that the first six notes of Coltrane's saxophone solo on Acknowledgement are exactly the same as the theme tune to The Sweeney:." (Alex Petridis)

Hilarious! Makes it worth putting that album on again after years of dismissing it in favour of something like Giant Steps

Mick

[Bass-ic]

Jazz is just not for me. I am from a family of jazz musicians. nah, cant be arsed with it, even though i think some of it is quite clever.
I hope that doesn't offend any one.

[The Funk]

The only problem with jazz as a genre right now - and this is a pretty major problem - is that it's been a long time since a great tune was written and for a lot of musicians, jazz became [i]only[/i] about improvisation, almost at the expense of everything else.

EDIT: It tends to be the older guys who get what it's all about. I watched Ellis Marsalis one night in New Orleans and then The Preservation Hall Old Masters the next night - those guys really get what it's all about.

Edited November 11, 2008 by The Funk

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='bassace' post='326571' date='Nov 11 2008, 10:46 AM']Jazz, like any other art form has its individual limits of understanding. Take art itself - we can all understand a Constable and most old portraits; for some, the Impressionists may be a bit challenging. Plenty of people just about get Picasso and Dali etc. Rothko? - fewer still, and so it goes. There are several examples of modern art that I just can't begin to understand but I concede that there are people out there who do understand and enjoy those works.

So it is with jazz. What's not to like about some of the early stuff, Louis Armstrong for example? Then we get into 'modern jazz' (actually 50 years old at least) much of which is readily understandable, although some of the extended solos were a bit tedious. Thelonious, Ornette, Coltrane - bit more challenging; and so it goes.

There is so much in jazz and so much to learn and enjoy. There's something for everyone.[/quote]


Jazz fans do as much damage to the genre as the music itself.

You guys seem to think that there are 2 groups or people: Those who like Jazz and those that don't understand it.

Wrong!

There are those that (probably pretend) to like it and those that think it's utter sh*t.


I'm told you can't dismiss an entire genre. But I've yet to hear a jazz song I like. I'm not getting any younger, and I just don't have time to invest in music I need to force myself to like just so I can wear a blazer over a roll-neck sweater. Its the musical equivalent of Stockholm Syndrome. You fellas have spent a long time trying to like this stuff, that you have somehow fallen in love with it.

It reminds me of those annoying f***ers who recommend a film (usually something sh*t like The Beach or Fight Club). When you tell them that it was f***ing sh*t, they say"well you clearly didn't understand it". Yes I f***ing did, and I also understand that your opinion isn't worth sh*t!



Most improvisation is bollocks. Improvise when writing the thing, pick the best version, and there you go, you've got your song. Quite frankly, I couldn't care what mood you're in when you play it live.

Edited November 11, 2008 by BigBeefChief

[Wil]

This is the only jazz I can live with.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF5vlT01JNc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF5vlT01JNc[/url]

[The Funk]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='326629' date='Nov 11 2008, 11:44 AM']Most improvisation is bollocks.[/quote]

Agree with the first part of your post: you can get jazz and still not love it. I also agree with the second part - the number of so-called greats who can't structure a coherent improvised solo together is astounding. I don't care if it's improvised - it's not fun to listen to if you get lost, start again, get lost, start again, get lost, wander off, and then give up altogether.

That's not an inherent problem with improvisation - it's a problem that incoherent, sloppy soloing has become acceptable (and not just in jazz).