Jazz - what's it all about ?

[crez5150]

I have a vast collection of 'Jazz' mags.....


I'll get me roll neck sweater...

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Eight' post='398888' date='Feb 3 2009, 01:20 PM']I do like The Jazz Singer (Neil Diamond version) if that makes up for my joke. [/quote]

That has as much to do with jazz as small cars and aftershave.

I was thinking about the point someone made about everyone being made to feel that they should like jazz when the same was not the case with other genres.

I think the answer to that is that most people who come to jazz do so after having played other genres and have got to it after a journey with their instrument. I started out thinking Steve Harris was the dbs, then Chris Squire, Geddy Lee, then on through Percy Jones to Jaco and Jeff Berlin, onto Mingus, Paul Chambers, Marc Johnson, Dave Holland etc.

So when you get to the point where you have found something that holds your attention (for decades), it is inevitable that you want to share your enthusiasm. More controversially, you get to recognise that many of the so called greats, like Harris and Lee (or Flea or whoever), are not so unassailable as you thought they were when you heard them as a young player - if I can play Phantom of the Opera, it can't have been as hard as I once thought. So, because you went through this process, you are inclined to think you 'know' a truth that is not evident to those who liked the first thing they heard and stuck with it.

[YouMa]

I love jazz its the only music that really takes me out there,in some ways i think it influences all other genres of music.Im not keen on trad though,the mad 70s fusion stuff miles did with dave liebman doing his mad snake charming sax is my favourite stuff.

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='Eight' post='396397' date='Jan 31 2009, 08:21 PM']How come its fine not to like death metal, noise punk, opera or trance (just random examples) but if you don't like jazz then its because you don't know how to hear it!?!? I am not an ignorant pop-conditioned musical monkey just because I don't like "jazz" (or to avoid generalisations, any of the jazz I happen to have heard so far).

If jazz is Greek, then early industrial like Throbbing Gristle and Cabaret Voltaire are [s]Latin[/s] [s]Arabic[/s] [s]Chinese[/s] Old Norse. In which case I am as high brow as you.[/quote]
+1

[Bilbo]

There is a freat Dave Liebman/Steve Swallow/Adam Nussbaum trio cd out there called We Three

Recommended

[YouMa]

Ill have a look,i like liebman better than miles on a couple of tracks.

[Rayman]

Everything is [i]your[/i] personal taste.

You like it = it's great

You hate it = it's sh*t

Pretty straight forward to me.

I love [i]some[/i] jazz, Metal, Dub, Country, Pop...etc....etc

I also equally hate [i]some[/i] jazz. metal.....etc.....etc

Music is great, embrace it [i]all[/i] my brothers (and sisters).

Edited February 3, 2009 by Rayman

[Eight]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='398936' date='Feb 3 2009, 02:05 PM']That has as much to do with jazz as small cars and aftershave.[/quote]
Yeah sorry 'bout that - couldn't resist another attempt at humour.

[xgsjx]

I agree that jazz is like any other genre, some is good, some is pish.

I watched "the Jazz singer", Neil Diamond's version not long ago & thought it was one of the worst films that I'd ever seen. Not because I don't like his songs (I like some, I don't like others), but because it was just plain rubbish. Bad acting, dire script & missed the genre of music by a mile, it was a waste of what coulda been a good remake. Just my opinion tho, a work colleague loves this film.

[Rich]

[quote name='Rayman' post='399044' date='Feb 3 2009, 03:32 PM']Everything is [i]your[/i] personal taste.

You like it = it's great

You hate it = it's sh*t

Pretty straight forward to me.

I love [i]some[/i] jazz, Metal, Dub, Country, Pop...etc....etc

I also equally hate [i]some[/i] jazz. metal.....etc.....etc

Music is great, embrace it [i]all[/i] my brothers (and sisters).[/quote]


Every other post in this thread is now meaningless.

[YouMa]

Watch a film called bird directed by clint east eastwood its a bit more jazz than the jazz singer,i wouldnt class neil diamond as jazz myself.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='YouMa' post='399157' date='Feb 3 2009, 05:14 PM']i wouldnt class neil diamond as jazz myself.[/quote]


Agreed. Neil Diamond has done some good stuff and plays to large audiences.

[Eight]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='398936' date='Feb 3 2009, 02:05 PM']So when you get to the point where you have found something that holds your attention (for decades), it is inevitable that you want to share your enthusiasm. More controversially, you get to recognise that many of the so called greats, like Harris and Lee (or Flea or whoever), are not so unassailable as you thought they were when you heard them as a young player - if I can play Phantom of the Opera, it can't have been as hard as I once thought. So, because you went through this process, you are inclined to think you 'know' a truth that is not evident to those who liked the first thing they heard and stuck with it.[/quote]
Well when you put it all like that, its pretty hard to argue with.

I can see how someone like you (bags of experience, motivation etc.) would progress (for want of a better term) to playing jazz. And I can now understand that its hard to explain those thoughts without sounding a little condescending even when you only try to do what everyone else does i.e. be enthusiastic about music they love.

Thanks for posting Bilbo; I *think* I've learnt something there. Still don't like jazz though

[Prosebass]

[quote name='Rich' post='399155' date='Feb 3 2009, 05:12 PM']
Every other post in this thread is now meaningless. [/quote]

What !!! only every other post....?

[Rich]

[quote name='YouMa' post='399157' date='Feb 3 2009, 05:14 PM']i wouldnt class neil diamond as jazz myself.[/quote]
[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='399271' date='Feb 3 2009, 07:02 PM']Agreed. Neil Diamond has done some good stuff and plays to large audiences.[/quote]

[BigBeatNut]

[quote name='Rich' post='399155' date='Feb 3 2009, 05:12 PM']
Every other post in this thread is now meaningless. [/quote]
Except at the very least mine I hope ... I was trying to say exactly the same thing as Rayman .... partial quote

[quote name='BigBeatNut' post='396324' date='Jan 31 2009, 06:47 PM']The only thing that matters at end of the day is 'do you like it'. If you like it, find other people who like it and talk about it and make music with them. If you don't like it, don't bang on at the people who do, what do you think you're going to do, persuade them ? Go find some music you do like and talk about that.
{snip}
Me, I don't have a problem, it's all just music.[/quote]

Andy

[Bilbo]

Yeah but no nut.

Its also about breaking down prejudices. If I hear the terms 'jazz' and 'mindless noodling' in the same sentence (which is very common amongst the uninformed), I have two responses. One is the pro-social impulse to educate, to inform to enlighten. The other is more defensive ('I've got a brain the size of a planet and you think I am going to be satisfied with 'mindless noodling' and invest 28 years (and counting) in perfecting my approach to it? Eh? Do Ya? Do Ya?).

Besides, like most Welsh people, I like good argument!

[BigBeatNut]

Hmm ... now you're making me think. While I have huge respect for your opinions ... mostly because of the insights offered by this post ...

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='398936' date='Feb 3 2009, 02:05 PM']So when you get to the point where you have found something that holds your attention (for decades), it is inevitable that you want to share your enthusiasm.[/quote]

... I'm struggling trying to figure out if I'm one of the 'uninformed'.

While I'm obviously a 'player', and less obviously I know a lot of music theory (okay, way less than I actually have the skills to apply, but still) , and you might think that qualifies me as one of the 'informed' .... actually I find a lot of the stuff that's labelled 'jazz' does strike me as a lot of 'noodling'.

Try as I might, I have not the slightest clue what's going on in a Charlie Parker solo. I suspect that to really 'appreciate' it (why am I getting my self into this territory ... sigh) you have to be not only a player, a player who has knowledge of the right musical theory, AND the skills to be able to apply it. Only then, when you hear a flurry of a million notes from Charlie Parker, do you then have the ability to recognise, say, "wow ... he managed to use three tritone substitutions and half the circle of fifths while modulating to the relative minor ... that's way cool".

See where I'm going ? I think (and please tell me wrong) that the only people who really get into that kind of stuff are either (1) people who are highly skilled musicians or (2) people who think they're cool because they're parroting the opinions of group (1).

Could be I'm totally wrong and there is a group (3) people who just hear it and it moves them. I'm not in group (3) myself so I can't really say. I'd love to hear from someone who is. Genuinely.

I know what music moves me ... and some of it gets labelled jazz .... but noodling of any sort (either of the 'supremely technically proficient' or 'mindless' variety) gets the skip button from me.

Heh ... just realised there's a theme going on here for me ... my tastes in music are as low-brow as my tastes in everything else .... nothing too subtle for me thanks very much .... superhero movies, highly spiced food, and music that impels my body to join in with the groove .... more of all three please

I still think the most important question is 'does it move you' ? If it does, spend time listening to it, talk about, analyse it, learn to play it, hang out with people who are like-minded.

If it doesn't move you ... move on.

Andy

[xgsjx]

I'm in agreement that some stuff sounds like a load of noodling & that sort of jazz does nothing for me either.

My tastes in jazz are more the old crooners (& the new ones) or things like Madeleine Peyroux or even some Bella Fleck & the Flecktones (preferably with Wooton on bass).

But then my tastes are a bit different. Films that make you think, food that makes you think and music that makes you think. However, there is nothing wrong with superhero movies, spicy food & groovy music as I am also partial to a bit of these as well.

I suppose I like loads of stuff from trance to thrash, funk to punk & anything else that isn't mass produced to appeal to 12 year olds.

[Bilbo]

Like anyone, I can respond to the immediacy of a great funk groove, or the energy of a System of a Down track but, after a very short while (like 2 tracks), I'm finished. I think the only reason I like them when I hear them is some sort of visceral nostalgia. Using the analogies already raised, for me its like a Big Mac is ok once in a while but two? Three? Every day? No way, Jose. Or Police Academy One might be a laugh; but PA 2, PA 3, PA 4, 5, 6, 7 etc. S'no good.

Charlie Parker's stuff is actually very melodic (unlike later Coltrane etc). Best way to get inside it is to learn to whistle a couple of heads.You have to understand that, when he hit, Parker was God. Nowadays, any half decent big band can play charts that are written of his heads and solos; with 13 horns covering it in unison. How hard can it be?

For teh record, when I listen to jazz, I almost never respond to anything simply because it is complicated (some very hard stuff is very boring and emotionally unsatisfying). I react to good jazzin exactly the same way as I did Iron Maiden, Rush, Genesis, Yes, Motorhead etc when I was starting out. Main difference is I Know What I Like and I Like What I Don't Know. That's why I like improvised music. Precisely because it is a lot less predictable. Not, in any way, because it is hard to do.

[xilddx]

This is a bootless argument. It's strictly personal.

[BigBeatNut]

[quote name='silddx' post='400507' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:53 PM']It's strictly personal.[/quote]

It is .... I think it stopped being an argument several posts ago. Just an exchange of opinions that's getting more interesting by the hour ...

[Owen]

I'm sure you have all seen this, it might even be in the thread already, but if not ..........

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TebUMhJAKSM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TebUMhJAKSM[/url]

[BigBeatNut]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='400496' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:38 PM']For teh record, when I listen to jazz, I almost never respond to anything simply because it is complicated (some very hard stuff is very boring and emotionally unsatisfying). I react to good jazzin exactly the same way as I did Iron Maiden, Rush, Genesis, Yes, Motorhead etc when I was starting out.[/quote]
So you are part of my group (3) ... well, well .... I may give Charlie Parker another shot ... possibly after some Art Tatum (which I know I like) to set the historical scene 1st.

Andy

[BigBeatNut]

Bilbo (or anyone really, but particularly Bilbo, because I think we're more akin than I first thought) ... what do you think of this ?

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSzWPNFX7sc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSzWPNFX7sc[/url]

Hesitated a bit about posting it, but I genuinely want to know (suddenly remembered that our drummer emailed me the link some time ago).

Andy