High End Cables

[pfretrock]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1510234464' post='3404863']
Wow! Where do I get a cable that stores charge from?
[/quote]
You don't.

The trace is in dBu, so it is a level relative to some reference, not an absolute quantity. 1dBu is what you get when 1mW is fed into a 600 ohm load - the units used in studio VU meters. So it is just a ratio. I guess their measurement system is not calibrated though. And the last trace in the link on post #100 does not look right. A P bass pickup does not respond up to 10kHz as they show, more like 3-4kHz. That last plot looks more like a guitar to me.

Here is what I get with a Spice model of a P Bass with a short 1m lead (Red) and a 6m lead (blue). 250K pots, tone flat out. The higher capacitance 6m lead (700pF) reduces the cut off frequency and has a resonant peak. With low capacitance cable (which you should use), the resonance frequency is above cut-off so you don't see it.

Whether this makes and difference in a hearing test is probably not worth bothering about.

[pfretrock]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1510234464' post='3404863']
Wow! Where do I get a cable that stores charge from?
[/quote]

See here:

[url="http://mlg.eng.cam.ac.uk/mchutchon/ResonantCircuits.pdf"]http://mlg.eng.cam.a...antCircuits.pdf[/url]

See Figs 4 & 7:

"The figure shows that the circuit exhibits voltage amplification properties. At the resonant frequency,"


There is an energy transfer between the inductor and the capacitor, both of which are capable of storing energy. So you can get a voltage or current amplification.
But note that the paper says:

"It is important to note that as this is a passive circuit the total amount of power dissipated is constant."

So you don't get something for nothing!

[Rocker]

Sadly threads like this one always end up much the same. Broadly the usual conclusion is that if something cannot be believed/understood then it cannot happen. All this is 'proven' by the use of second level maths. The cable building industry do not help either by making some outrageous claims about the properties or benefits of their products.

The best cable, of course, is no cable. But as cables of some kind are needed to connect boxes, it follows that these cables MUST have a negative influence on the signal they are carrying. It depends on the usage of the cables as to whether you or I can hear the alteration of the signal as a result of using such cables. Cables connecting a guitar to some FX pedals and then to an amp cannot make much difference [unless the total length of cable is > say 20 metres] as a guitar amp is basically a distortion generator so losses are irrelevant and anyway that is what tone controls are for! But cables carrying low level signals, from a turntable for example, are a different proposition entirely. Even a minute alteration to the signal, aka distortion, will be clearly heard after it is amplified by the phono stage and hi-fi system amplification. It would be great if this were not the case but it is and the best that we can do is minimize the signal alteration as best we can. Digital signals too are often incorrectly depicted as '0' and '1'. But they are square waves with a minuscule but significant rise and fall time. A 'well built' digital cable will minimize the distortion of the digital signal and result in a truer representation of the signal at the other end.

All of the above is mere common sense and pretty obvious when you think about it. Any hi-fi system is a collection of boxes connected together by cables. So it needs to be considered in its entirety as a single operation. Everything from the electricity wall socket to the speakers becomes a single entity whose sole purpose is to play music as accurately as possible. Any chain is only as good as its weakest link. The weakest part can be anywhere in the chain, a chain where some links are stronger than others. A good hi-fi dealer will know the properties of the products he sells, so it is his job to balance the pluses and minuses of the individual components to give the best possible sound from that system.

The cables used are part of the problem and part of the solution. When the combination is 'right' the sound is glorious. Get the combination wrong and the sound becomes merely good. A lot better than the sound system in your car or iPod but still a degree or two short of what it could be. A quick A/B swap is not the way to determine which item is 'best'. In my experience the only way to check out anything, be it CD player, amp or cables etc., is to use it in my system for at least a month and then to replace it with what was in use before. Then you will know if it is better, worse or the same. Sound engineers might analyze sound on a scope or screen but we listen to it. Our ears are exceptionally well adapted for the job of listening to music. We need to trust them. In other words if it sounds good to you, it is good. So enjoy it. No matter what anyone else says.

One tip for better sound, and I have done this myself, is to get an electrician to install a dedicated SPUR from your mains MCB panel to an unswitched socket for your hi-fi system. And to use 6 sq. m.m. twin & earth cable and to run a seperate 6 sq m.m. earth wire from the socket to the earth block in the MCB board. Unless the electricity supply in your area is very poor quality, this relatively small investment will give a return way in excess of the outlay. 6 sq. m.m. is about the largest cable that can be used with a 13 amp socket. Also to ask your electrician to ensure that the earth connection is actually connected to the earth via an earth spike.

Bashing audiophiles [aka audiophools] is a common theme on guitar/music forums. By guitarists that will debate endlessly about the colour of a scratchplate on a guitar!!!! It becomes tiresome defending the 'cable' wicket. So rather than pissing all over anyone who suggests that cables have an effect on the sound, why not put it to the test yourself. If you get any benefit, you have gained something. If not, it has only cost you some of your time.

[Leonard Smalls]

[quote name='Rocker' timestamp='1510242475' post='3404950']

One tip for better sound, and I have done this myself, is to get an electrician to install a dedicated SPUR from your mains MCB panel to an unswitched socket for your hi-fi system. And to use 6 sq. m.m. twin & earth cable and to run a seperate 6 sq m.m. earth wire from the socket to the earth block in the MCB board. Unless the electricity supply in your area is very poor quality, this relatively small investment will give a return way in excess of the outlay. 6 sq. m.m. is about the largest cable that can be used with a 13 amp socket. Also to ask your electrician to ensure that the earth connection is actually connected to the earth via an earth spike.

[/quote]

You'll be telling us we all need a Russ Andrews "Grounded Grid" next!
There's absolutely no benefit at all in having an extra earth cable from your "SPUR" to your consumer unit (MCB Panel? No RCDs then, or RCBOs?)); the earth conductor is there mostly for safety purposes. It's there to allow a safe path to ground in the event of a fault - though some switch mode type supplies do dump a little bit of current down it. If there is a fault to earth, it makes sense to have the lowest possible earth loop impedance (i.e. the impedance of the line conductor all the way to the mains supply transformer, and back via the earth conductor), as lower impedance means higher fault current, which means faster operation of the RCD - something you'd be glad of if you happen to be touching the metal case of your amplifier when there's an earth fault.
And if you want a low earth loop impedance, the best way to do that is via a TNCS, or PME system (Protective Multiple Earth) - basically the supply neutral is the earth, which ensures a very low impedance, typically 0.35ohms or less. Having an earth spike is basically something you should only have if your incoming supply is not suitable for PME; the loop impedance is likely to be anywhere between 100 and 600x greater than 0.35 ohms (max allowable by Regs is 200ohms), which means slower operation of an RCD.
As for the "SPUR" often loudly promoted by some hifi types, it's not a "SPUR", it's a radial circuit. And using 6mm T&E is a bit of a waste of time - after all most hifi isn't likely to use even the maximum current supplied by a 13 amp socket (that would allow for ~3000W of power), never mind the 32Amps that a 2.5mm ringmain is rated at!
Still, if it makes work for us sparkies, I'm all for it!

[Dan Dare]

[quote name='Rocker' timestamp='1510242475' post='3404950']

Bashing audiophiles [aka audiophools] is a common theme on guitar/music forums. By guitarists that will debate endlessly about the colour of a scratchplate on a guitar!!!!
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure those guitar players wouldn't claim that the colour of the scratchplate has any effect on the sound, though. I think we're all in agreement that cables made from decent quality components, properly constructed, will help. It's the snake oil, cables made from unobtainium, etc that we draw the line at.

[pfretrock]

I use homeopathic audio cable. It's copper with one part per million oxygen.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Rocker' timestamp='1510242475' post='3404950']
Sadly threads like this one always end up much the same...
[/quote]

Just to say that I humbly disagree with almost every statement in this post. Non-square wave binary is audible..? Dedicated power socket..? Signal attenuation is 'distortion'..? Nah, I'll have none of it.

[inthedoghouse]

I make my own cables from Van Damme cable and Neutrik plugs. I don't feel the need for anything else.

[Jack]

[quote name='Rocker' timestamp='1510242475' post='3404950']Digital signals too are often incorrectly depicted as '0' and '1'. But they are square waves with a minuscule but significant rise and fall time. A 'well built' digital cable will minimize the distortion of the digital signal and result in a truer representation of the signal at the other end.[/quote]
Wrong. A digital cable may pick some distortions up during its run, but the receiving device will be able to convert back to pure binary. This is why digital is superior to analogue for accuracy.

[quote name='Rocker' timestamp='1510242475' post='3404950']Our ears are exceptionally well adapted for the job of listening to music. We need to trust them.[/quote]
Also very wrong. Well, maybe not. Anyway it doesn't matter as regardless of how good our ears are, they are often overruled by the brain. Placebo, confirmation bias, apophenia and many more psychological effects can distort our view of the world.

[quote name='Rocker' timestamp='1510242475' post='3404950']One tip for better sound, and I have done this myself, is to get an electrician to install a dedicated SPUR from your mains MCB panel to an unswitched socket for your hi-fi system. And to use 6 sq. m.m. twin & earth cable and to run a seperate 6 sq m.m. earth wire from the socket to the earth block in the MCB board. Unless the electricity supply in your area is very poor quality, this relatively small investment will give a return way in excess of the outlay. 6 sq. m.m. is about the largest cable that can be used with a 13 amp socket. Also to ask your electrician to ensure that the earth connection is actually connected to the earth via an earth spike.[/quote]
What tangible benefit does this gain?

Edited November 9, 2017 by Jack

[TimR]

[quote name='pfretrock' timestamp='1510238247' post='3404907']


See here:

[url="http://mlg.eng.cam.ac.uk/mchutchon/ResonantCircuits.pdf"]http://mlg.eng.cam.a...antCircuits.pdf[/url]

See Figs 4 & 7:

"The figure shows that the circuit exhibits voltage amplification properties. At the resonant frequency,"


There is an energy transfer between the inductor and the capacitor, both of which are capable of storing energy. So you can get a voltage or current amplification.
But note that the paper says:

"It is important to note that as this is a passive circuit the total amount of power dissipated is constant."

So you don't get something for nothing!
[/quote]

I just think the wording that ‘the capacitor stores charge’ is quite humorous. It’s not the way you’d generally look at a capacitor between signal and earth in a high frequency application.

[lee650]

in the past I've used many high end cables for instruments and speakers (Monster/Evidence Audio/Zaolla) and i can tell the difference in tone (I did really like the Zaolla but it went intermittent ans I had to stop using it).
For a few years now, I use exclusively OBBM ' S rockwire for bass cables/patch leads and speaker cable! I'm very happy with them, sounds great and not daft money

[Rocker]

Leonard Smalls.  Thank you for your reply to my contribution.  I am not telling you anything about Russ Andrews or indeed anything along that lines.  My point about considering everything used on your hi-fi system as part of the system [and thus affecting the sound from it] still stands.

I am a retired electrician and worked 'on the tools' for a fair number of years.  In that time, we [sparks] spoke of ring main circuits or spurs depending on how they were cabled.  Rightly or wrongly every spark knew what you were talking about when you alluded to ring mains etc.  The lingo might be different in the UK but the meaning is likely to be the same.

What you say about the current draw for a hi-fi system makes sense except it is not like that in practice.  However it happens I don't know but using the 6 sq m.m. cable from the MCB board benefits the sound from my system.  Ditto with the additional earth wire.  I am not going to pretend that I know why, I don't, but it does.  I am simply passing on this information in case you or others might be remodeling and/or rewiring your house and this work is easy to do in that case.  So it ought to be done to get the best from your hi-fi system.

People from a technical background tend to dismiss the importance of electricity quality and cabling, usually arguing that one cable is more or less the same as another.  The hi-fi industry charge amazing prices for bits of wire but sometimes, just sometimes those bits of wire do make a difference.  Why or how I don't know.  It is simply a question of trying it out and listening with an open mind.  Not too open mind you, just be alert to the possibility that you may be surprised.

 

[Dan Dare]

On ‎09‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 13:34, TimR said:

Wow! Where do I get a cable that stores charge from?

From Santa's little elves

[stingrayPete1977]

A clean earth is used to protect devices from noise from things like motors from fridges and vacuum cleaners, it will also protect the equipment from a surge on the earth during fault conditions from another item fed from the same distribution board.....

But...

They are almost always wired wrongly, you need a clean earth socket outlet that separates the earth to the pin of the sensitive kit from the socket pins and general earth in the building, a single cable should come from the fuseboard to the socket and the earth used for the kit, the other earth run along just connects the pins and back box etc straight back to the fuseboard. If you have a standard socket it isn't doing anything no matter what your ears say.

In a domestic setting with one fridge and one freezer I'd wager no difference in the audio system, as for 6mm over 2.5mm cable that's 100% nonsense.

Btw I'm a an electrician that wires these systems regularly,  I've just finished two state of the art IT rooms at a school last week, they have dispensed with the clean earths other than to the network hubs, and the hubs feeding 70 stations are wired in 2.5mm with a 6mm clean earth, to a normal pointless socket outlet

[tinyd]

On 09/11/2017 at 15:47, Rocker said:

Digital signals too are often incorrectly depicted as '0' and '1'. But they are square waves with a minuscule but significant rise and fall time. A 'well built' digital cable will minimize the distortion of the digital signal and result in a truer representation of the signal at the other end.

 

You're correct that it isn't actually a 0 and 1 travelling over the wire in a digital cable, and that it is something like a square wave. But the circuitry / protocols used to send the data will convert these to digital data and eliminate any differences. As long as the cable itself is capable of reliably transmitting a signal, it will work, and all digital cables meet this requirement unless they're actually broken. Once this "bare minimum" requirement is met for a digital cable, it is impossible for it to make any difference to sound quality. 

It's the same if you download a track from iTunes, it's been read from a disk in a data centre somewhere, transmitted internally over a bunch of bog-standard ethernet cables and optical cables, broken up and bounced between various servers around the world, and then maybe down a phone line to your router and finally wirelessly to your phone. At the lowest level, all of these  'hops' involve some kind of analogue signal and can consist of crappy cabling or a dodgy connection, but the protocols that are used make sure that you get either an exact copy of what was sent, or nothing at all (if something is seriously wrong). What doesn't happen is that you get a better- or worse-sounding file depending on the quality of all these components.

One slight caveat here is that many digital services like Netflix and Skype use a technique called 'adaptation' which deliberately modifies the quality of what is being sent to you if your connectivity is poor. But this is deliberately engineered to happen and it would be pointless in an audio system since all cables are more than capable of handling the bandwidth required.

[Leonard Smalls]

On 11/13/2017 at 17:12, Rocker said:

What you say about the current draw for a hi-fi system makes sense except it is not like that in practice.  However it happens I don't know but using the 6 sq m.m. cable from the MCB board benefits the sound from my system.  Ditto with the additional earth wire.  I am not going to pretend that I know why, I don't, but it does. 

People from a technical background tend to dismiss the importance of electricity quality and cabling, usually arguing that one cable is more or less the same as another.  The hi-fi industry charge amazing prices for bits of wire but sometimes, just sometimes those bits of wire do make a difference.  Why or how I don't know.  It is simply a question of trying it out and listening with an open mind.  Not too open mind you, just be alert to the possibility that you may be surprised.

Electrical quality will only make a difference if the kit that is being supplied has a poorly designed internal supply...  Unfortunately some hifi kit does seem to be susceptible to the slightest variation of mains, even if that mains supply is within the spec of the supply regulations!

However, I'd say that kit like that shouldn't exist as it doesn't comply with EU regs, or at least with the spirit of the regs (i.e. it should work optimally at any voltage between 216 and 253 volts, at frequencies between 49.5 and 50.5 ohms), and should be able to cope with mild DC offsets and small spikes and rf caused by motor switching etc. And even if it does exist, as it does, a sensible consumer shouldn't buy it! You can get better sound without the shenanigans!

And any signal cable that is electrically sufficient, ie has low LCR will do basically nowt to sound quality; however, if you spend lots on, say Van Den Hul carbon cables or the like you're adding what is effectively an uncontrollable tone control! This will sound different because it basically removes some of the top end! And if you buy some of the seriously expensive cables, such as Transparent, Siltech etc the fact that you've spent a fortune on them will pre-dispose your ears to hear a difference where there isn't actually one - it's called expectation bias.

At the end of the day it's down to enjoyment of the music - if you get more enjoyment and perceived better sound by lifting your £10k cables with cable lifters at £250 each, having Shakti Stones littered all over your kit, everything standing on 12 levels of Mana and a generous spattering of Machina Dynamica foo gracing your room that's excellent. But I want kit that just works - it's the music i want to enjoy rather than spending a ridiculous amount of time faffing around searching for some impossible-to-find audio nirvana! 

BTW, I was also a BBC sound engineer for 17 years before retraining as a sparky...

[BigRedX]

Anyone who thinks that high-end HiFi interconnects make a serious difference to the signal quality of the music should pay a visit to the average recording studio and see how many hundreds of feet of very ordinary (but perfectly good) cable the signal has passed through first from the instrument/microphone to the multitrack recording medium.

[stingrayPete1977]

1 hour ago, Leonard Smalls said:

Electrical quality will only make a difference if the kit that is being supplied has a poorly designed internal supply...  Unfortunately some hifi kit does seem to be susceptible to the slightest variation of mains, even if that mains supply is within the spec of the supply regulations!

However, I'd say that kit like that shouldn't exist as it doesn't comply with EU regs, or at least with the spirit of the regs (i.e. it should work optimally at any voltage between 216 and 253 volts, at frequencies between 49.5 and 50.5 ohms), and should be able to cope with mild DC offsets and small spikes and rf caused by motor switching etc. And even if it does exist, as it does, a sensible consumer shouldn't buy it! You can get better sound without the shenanigans!

And any signal cable that is electrically sufficient, ie has low LCR will do basically nowt to sound quality; however, if you spend lots on, say Van Den Hul carbon cables or the like you're adding what is effectively an uncontrollable tone control! This will sound different because it basically removes some of the top end! And if you buy some of the seriously expensive cables, such as Transparent, Siltech etc the fact that you've spent a fortune on them will pre-dispose your ears to hear a difference where there isn't actually one - it's called expectation bias.

At the end of the day it's down to enjoyment of the music - if you get more enjoyment and perceived better sound by lifting your £10k cables with cable lifters at £250 each, having Shakti Stones littered all over your kit, everything standing on 12 levels of Mana and a generous spattering of Machina Dynamica foo gracing your room that's excellent. But I want kit that just works - it's the music i want to enjoy rather than spending a ridiculous amount of time faffing around searching for some impossible-to-find audio nirvana! 

BTW, I was also a BBC sound engineer for 17 years before retraining as a sparky...

Oh no you used "ohms" instead of Hz, TimR will be all over you,  lol.

[Leonard Smalls]

EEK! The shame! When you get to my age etc...

[Rocker]

This is not a debate that either side can 'win'. You or I can do nothing about what happens or is used in studios or indeed anything before buying the CD or LP and taking it home. If your replay system is properly setup (speakers vertical, supported and positioned correctly etc), you will get to hear what is on the disk. The quality of the sound depends on how the system parts work together. To date there are zero perfect system components. Everything is compromised to a greater or lesser extent. A good system is where the strengths and weaknesses of component parts are in balance.

 

As I already explained, the system is everything from the wall socket to the speakers. As difficult as it may be to accept this but even the wires used to connect the boxes can have an effect on what you hear. The modern hi-fi sound, one you will hear at hi-fi shows, is slightly edgy and very detailed. The sound I want is more laid back and smooth. Cables like Nordost do emphasise the detail on the disk whereas cables made from silver wire smooth the sound to a large extent.

 

For many years I kept a box of standard cables, mains etc., that I used to swap into my main system every year or year and a half. Just to keep me honest. Just to see if I have been fooling myself by using silver cables. The result was always the same - my system did not sound right to me until I refitted the silver wires. After many years I sent the box of standard cables to the recycling depot.

 

In this hobby, nothing can be assumed or taken for granted. Valve amps with high levels of distortion usually sound better than better measuring solid state amps. A good hi-fi dealer will usually get you the sound that is right by your ears, that is his chosen field and he knows his products. Years ago I coined a phrase 'AudioBliss' to mean the best possible sound in your room, a sound that you feel could not be bettered in that room. If you arrive at that state, leave everything as it is. Change nothing, just enjoy your music.

[SpondonBassed]

We're taking sides now?  Where can I get a Bovril and a pie?

[Jack]

10 hours ago, Rocker said:

For many years I kept a box of standard cables, mains etc., that I used to swap into my main system every year or year and a half. Just to keep me honest. Just to see if I have been fooling myself by using silver cables. The result was always the same - my system did not sound right to me until I refitted the silver wires. After many years I sent the box of standard cables to the recycling depot.

Whilst I can't claim the same electrical knowledge as some of the sparkies in this thread I do know my science. Specifically, my job is to run workshops based on politics, science and skepticism.

 

Id wager that one of two things is happening here.

 

1. You said normal cables are harsh and yours are smooth. There is a possibility that (since cables are passive and can only take away from a signal) that the normal ones are full range and the silver ones have an in built or designed in imperfection that takes away some high end.

 

2. It's some combination of observer bias and confirmation bias. There wouldn't be a difference on a scope and you couldn't tell the difference in a double blind test.

[Leonard Smalls]

10 hours ago, Rocker said:

As I already explained, the system is everything from the wall socket to the speakers. As difficult as it may be to accept this but even the wires used to connect the boxes can have an effect on what you hear. The modern hi-fi sound, one you will hear at hi-fi shows, is slightly edgy and very detailed. The sound I want is more laid back and smooth. Cables like Nordost do emphasise the detail on the disk whereas cables made from silver wire smooth the sound to a large extent.

But many of the more expensive Nordost cables are either made from, or plated (!skin effect still lives!) in silver...

I've also got some Nordost silver cable inside my Leema speakers - they were re-wired by Nordost for a hifi show (before I bought them, I might add). And as the speaker maker himself said to me - "it was just a gimmick by Nordost to sell more of their monofilament cable".

Transmission of a signal down a wire is wholly a function of the LCR values of that wire - what it's actually made of or what the dielectric or sheathing is is largely irrelevant. At the end of the day it's down to the impedance, capacitance and resistance of that cable. Those properties are affected by the material, obviously, but they are what counts... And I've measured those values for both the solid silver Nordost internal speaker wiring on my Xaviers, and for the 6mm Van Damme blue (at about £6/m) that supplies them. And you'll be pleased to hear that all 3 were lower in the Van Damme at all audible frequencies - meaning that there would be less signal loss in the Van Damme.

Differences weren't huge - they would have translated as tiny fractions of a dB, i.e significantly lower than the threshold of the most golden of ears... 

However, if your expectation bias gives you more musical enjoyment with fancy cables in place, that's excellent - it is about the music after all!

[BigRedX]

Sometimes I wonder if the more we spend on playback equipment, the less we actually enjoy listening to the MUSIC?

I certainly appreciated the music a lot more when all I had to play it on was a second-hand Dansette which cost me the grand sum of £8 back in 1974. I wasn't particularly brilliant (the right channel was considerably quieter than the left which turn some stereo mixes from the 60s in instrumentals and wouldn't even entertain the possibility of playing anything with serious bass), but it did allow me to play my records in my own room, and not have to seek my parents' permission to use the record player in the lounge. 

[stingrayPete1977]

As I've said before the cables can't 'add' anything,  there's no debate/discussion to be had,  if the silver cables make it sound smoother then they are removing something.