High End Cables

[Ghost_Bass]

I won't read through the thread but i would like to let you in on a recent experience i had.

I've been using my trustworthy Klotz Funkmaster to connect bass to pedalboard, George L's between 5 pedals (all true bypass) and a self-made Neutrick/Klotz cable from the board to the amp for the past 10 years or close to it.

Recently i've started to heard noises and hiss when playing, normally raised when hitting the overdrive. I tried everything to track it down from bass battery to amp valve.

Finaly i was convinced that i needed to replace my old effectpowersupplies.co.uk (now fxpedal.co.uk) 3A 8-daisychain PSU for a new, isolated one, because when powering only 3 pedals it would be silent. I had to use 3 diferent PSUs on two gigs to power everything up until i noticed that a bit of noise was still there in the background. Opened pedals to clean them up with contact spray... etc...

I found the solution in the most unexpected way. Having removed the pedals from the board i had to use them separate on the floor and the patch cables were too short for me to hook up all the PSUs so i grabbed some old warwick rockbass patch cables from the spares box and hooked it all up. Instantly noticed all noises went away. After a bit of an eureka moment i started hooking everything up the my inicial PSU and no noise (except the one i got when moving the cables around, i told you they were old).

Ended up saving a lot of cash as i discovered the Geoge L's were to blame for the noise and started looking for good quality patch cables with short jacks to keep the pedals as close together as possible. I even thought about those EBS jack to jack type connectors and when looking them up found this solution:

Nice and compact, sturdy and at 5€ each it didn't broke the bank. EBS also has a gold plated model wich has even better conductivty (so they say). They're even more compact than the George L's i had and now i have a few more cm free on the board.


Moral of the story: Good cables are essential for good signal quality but they also decay like the others and from time to time you need to check them to see if they're still in good nick.

[phil.c60]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1510145435' post='3404245']
One thing I do like about the Fender cloth covered one that someone bought for me and I've been using for several trouble free years is that because of the covering it naturally 'wants' to curl in a way when it's being put away that makes it very difficult to twist or create hairpin bends in yet it unfolds and doesnt create loops when in use. I'm sure this has contributed to its longevity.
[/quote]

It's a funny old world - mine lasted not very long at all (broke up where the shrink wrap goes over the end of the connector), and I had several. A shame, because I liked the vintage vibe. All binned and replaced with OBBM cables a long time ago - no issues since.

[peteb]

[quote name='gafbass02' timestamp='1510154326' post='3404336']
Copied and pasted from a post of mine from 2010:


Funnily enough fellow basschatter davemuadib and I spent a geeky afternoon A/Bing cables back to back. We did obbm, (klotz) monster bass, elixir, zaolla, generic cheapo and hotlines. Long story short monster had a VERY obvious, pronounced low mid hump which made em sound deeper and punchier but at the expense of top end sparkle and clarity. Zaolla sounded superb, very neutral and open but with depth and solidity. Obbm sounded very similar to the zaolla, slightly less zingy and airy but very close nonetheless. Just not quite as 'expensive' sounding. The elixir was also good and very flat sounding but a tad uninteresting. The hotlines (old academy of sound cables) were still great I remembered why I liked em. Very punchy and forward sounding, a bit like a loudness button going in.
The zaolla, monster and elixir were thicker and the zaolla felt the best made. The hotlines and obbm cables felt lighter and thinner.
Since doing the test I've retired my monster cables to back ups and bought all obbm's which I'm very pleased with. The transparency goes well with the berg cabs and they are cheaper than zaolla!
I still rate monster and never had any issues with them. People that say there are no differences between cables should def spend an afternoon doing some A/B listening to a few brands. It's pretty big differences in some cases, less in others. The biggest difference was the monsters bass boost/(treble cut) to my ears. Maybe Dave will chip in ?
But the differences are there for all to hear! Simply no doubt about that. But onstage with all the rest of the band going ? Well there lies the real debate ;-)
I just like to know my stuff sounds good and is reliable. :-D
Edited by gafbass02, 24 October 2010 - 05:26 PM.
[/quote]
Yep, that's what I thought when first tried the monster cables. There is something wrong if you can't tell the difference when doing an A/B test in a quiet room because it is quite pronounced (whether you like the difference is another matter). Live is a different thing entirely of course.

To be fair, if all my leads were stolen and I had to buy new I would probably just get some obbm cables rather than spend the extra money. But as it is, I'm quite happy with the cables I've already got...

[stingrayPete1977]

A lead will have a resistance measured in ohms, good ones have very little resistance where cheap or damaged cables will have a higher resistance, if you want to hear high mids, extra punch etc go for it but any fully functioning lead of a standard length with fully functioning jack sockets either end will make no difference to the tone, you could only make it worse by adding more legth to the cable, having 'much' thinner cable cores or badly contacting jacks/solder joints.

There is only two ways a Monster cable could sound different;
1- faulty.
2- they've put an inline resistor in them to block certain frequencies.


Klotz guitar cable has a spec of less than 85ohms PER KILOMETRE!!! a P bass tone pot has a value of between 250k and 500k, thats more than 2 miles of cable worth of resistance, lol.

Edited November 8, 2017 by stingrayPete1977

[Jack]

So here's the rub.

I know all of this high-end cable stuff is nonsense. Of course it is, it's copper. However, many people say they hear a difference. I hypothesize that them hearing a difference is psychosomatic because they want to or expect to. How can we test this?

I suppose a good double blind would do it, but it's been done before and is of limited worth on a text-and-images-only forum. Would there be a suitable scope test? How can I actually measure the frequency response of a cable and post a graph on BC?

Edited November 8, 2017 by Jack

[stingrayPete1977]

The cable doesn't have a variable resistance at ambient temperature, a simple resistance test with a good multi meter is all you need, if a tone pot adds 500k ohms you'd need to see lets say 5kohms of difference between leads being generous to hear a difference, thats the equivalent of 58 kilometers of Klotz cable, 58 kilometers!

[TimR]

All coaxial (guitar) cable has capacitance. This will attenuate high frequencies. The lower the capacitance the higher the frequency cut off. The cable effectively acts as a low pass filter.

To measure the attenuation you need a frequency generator and a scope.
Measure the amplitude of the frequency at one end of the cable and at the other end simultaneously and increase the frequency. You’ll see the amplitude drop as the frequency rises.

Cheaper cable will have more attenuation at lower frequencies.

The crux is where the frequncy cut off is and whether you can actually detect it.

[stingrayPete1977]

http://www.shootoutguitarcables.com/guitar-cables-explained/capacitance-chart.html

Here's a handy chart for capacitance of guitar cables. If it's debatable on a clean single coil guitar through a guitar amp adding "punchy mids" with a bass and bass amp eq I'm filing it firmly in the snake oil folder

[tauzero]

[quote name='ricksterphil' timestamp='1510094557' post='3404031']
On a separate but related note, there was an ampeg head and cab on fleabay about a yr ago. The seller had replaced all the internal speaker and main amp internal cable with heavier duty wire which he claimed improved the sound - his point being that it's all very well spending gadzillions on premium gear but the bits of wire inside the speaker and amp are typically cheapest thin bit of wire, so by replacing same with heavier duty stuff, vastly improved the sound. No idea if he was right as I din't buy the amp and cab he had for sale....but it seemed logical Captain!
[/quote]

I had a GK 200MB (that's the little combo, forerunner to the MB150) that I had to replace the driver on. When I opened it up, I was very surprised at the thinness of the wire going to the speaker. I think the outer sheath was no more than 1.5mm diameter, and that was for a 25cm or so cable run.

[tauzero]

Always a right-angled plug into the bass, regardless of whether it's a top or side socket. But I always thread the cable between bass body and strap, force of habit I suppose. The other end can be straight or angled, depending on what's best for the amp.

I never use a right-angled lead on the Sei Original, as that would result in embarrassing silence with the plug not able to penetrate sufficiently into the jack socket recess. Edited November 11, 2017 by tauzero

[AndyTravis]

I honestly howled laughing at the shop I worked at when Some £115 cables came in.

I mocked them, I made fun “it’s bloody wires!!!”.

Anyhow, on the sly I was curious.

So I took a stagg £7 10ft cable, a planet waves 10ft £23,
A Fender Platinum £40 jobbie and the Monster which was about £80 at the time.

A bass into an Ashdown ABM rig, and I turned the Air conditioning off etc

So, played the same riff 4 times.

Stagg - worked, sounded like a bass into an amp, and what?
The Planet Waves was clearer, sounded like a bit more signal was coming through.
Fender - Snake Oil, no better than the PW atbhalf the price also prone to tangling, these were swiftly discontinued.

The Monster...well, wow. Completely different. There was definitely something more than the more that the planet waves had...

And then I realised that at the dog and duck, it doesn’t matter really, and £80 was frivolous.

I bought some OBBM cables and they gave up after a while which was admittedly after a lot of heavy useage.

I’ve had some crappy ones recently but do desire to sort something better soon - I keep meaning to go digital wireless as I move around in a very subtle wobble which seems to tangle cables.

[discreet]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1510171789' post='3404501']
I never use a right-angled lead on the Sei Original, as that would result in embarrassing silence with the plug not able to penetrate sufficiently into the jack socket recess.
[/quote]

Ooh, get you with your fancy high-end bass! Come the day I can afford such luxury I'll push the boat out and get new cables, too!

[stingrayPete1977]

There's no scientific way a cable can add anything, only other cables can take something away in comparison or be faulty. Cutting highs could make the lows and mids sound louder, they aren't.

[pfretrock]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1510171015' post='3404494']
To measure the attenuation you need a frequency generator and a scope.
Measure the amplitude of the frequency at one end of the cable and at the other end simultaneously and increase the frequency. You'll see the amplitude drop as the frequency rises.
[/quote]

This is not relevant if you are measuring a cable isolated from a passive bass as you have removed the pickup inductance from the circuit.
The high frequency cut off is dominated by the large pickup inductance and the pots and tone cap which forms a low pass filter.
The cable would contribute to the low pass point, but it may also resonate with the inductance and produce a peak below the cut off point, which would accentuate frequencies at this point. If the cable capacitance is very low, this resonance is above the cut off point and is negligible. It usually is for a bass and good low capacitance cable.

[quote]
The crux is where the frequency cut off is and whether you can actually detect it.[/quote]

Yes!

[TimR]

[quote name='pfretrock' timestamp='1510174540' post='3404524']


This is not relevant if you are measuring a cable isolated from a passive bass as you have removed the pickup inductance from the circuit.
The high frequency cut off is dominated by the large pickup inductance and the pots and tone cap which forms a low pass filter.
The cable would contribute to the low pass point, but it may also resonate with the inductance and produce a peak below the cut off point, which would accentuate frequencies at this point. If the cable capacitance is very low, this resonance is above the cut off point and is negligible. It usually is for a bass and good low capacitance cable.



Yes!
[/quote]

I agree, except that the bass and controls would be constant for all cables. The only variable is the cable. Attaching the bass and amplifier would tell you how the system changes but doesn’t tell you anything about the cable.

[barneyg42]

I notice nobody seems to have done a blind test, ie someone else plays the same riff with different cables or the tester has the cables changed and plays without seeing what cable is being used, surely this would take away any preconceptions and give a proper balanced opinion. A bit like a blindfold food test! I wonder if people are expecting a certain change in tone etc that’s what they perceive to get rather than there actually being a change.

[SpondonBassed]

I am another fan of cloth bound cable. It's got nothing to do with the sound though.

I got some with my Sony headphones. The fabric seems to stiffen the cable against torsional loads and prevents kinking and small loops while allowing it to bend freely in larger radii. As it is a long cable this is useful. I imagine it would help with instrument cable but I haven't bought any for that purpose.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-MDR-CD2000-Headphones-metallic/dp/B000051SDL

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='barneyg42' timestamp='1510211617' post='3404613']
I notice nobody seems to have done a blind test, ie someone else plays the same riff with different cables or the tester has the cables changed and plays without seeing what cable is being used, surely this would take away any preconceptions and give a proper balanced opinion. A bit like a blindfold food test! I wonder if people are expecting a certain change in tone etc that's what they perceive to get rather than there actually being a change.
[/quote]

You could have some fun doing that at a Bass Bash.

[pfretrock]

[quote name='barneyg42' timestamp='1510211617' post='3404613']
I notice nobody seems to have done a blind test, ie someone else plays the same riff with different cables or the tester has the cables changed and plays without seeing what cable is being used, surely this would take away any preconceptions and give a proper balanced opinion. A bit like a blindfold food test! I wonder if people are expecting a certain change in tone etc that's what they perceive to get rather than there actually being a change.
[/quote]

Sounds like a good way to waste a few hours
If you do this, use a passive bass, since an active bass is likely to drive the cable without any difference being noticed (Can anyone confirm if this is the case?) Also ideally go into something like Focusrite, then there will be no unwanted interaction between the different cables and the amp.

[Skol303]

[quote name='nilebodgers' timestamp='1510050043' post='3403451']
Neutrik jacks and VDC (XKE) or Klotz (AC104) cable are as good as it gets and as much as needs to be paid - ever.
[/quote]

This. End of thread. Next!

...in all seriousness, I [i]always[/i] opt for Neutrik jacks and either Klotz or Van Damme cable for analogue stuff, including 'guitar leads'. Plenty of alternatives out there I'm sure, but I've just never had any troubles with these brands (no crackles, breakages, etc) and can't notice any deterioration of sound quality when using them. And that's that. Life is otherwise too short to spend time fretting over cable choices.

PS: I also highly recommend [url="http://bassic-bits.co.uk"]http://bassic-bits.co.uk[/url]

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='pfretrock' timestamp='1510229449' post='3404757']
Sounds like a good way to waste a few hours
If you do this, use a passive bass, since an active bass is likely to drive the cable without any difference being noticed (Can anyone confirm if this is the case?) Also ideally go into something like Focusrite, then there will be no unwanted interaction between the different cables and the amp.
[/quote]

Yep - with an active bass, the tiny amount of capacitance in the cable makes no difference. With a passive bass it can make a difference. Not much though.

[thepurpleblob]

Don't know if anybody has linked to this.... http://sfguitarworks.com/the-great-cable-myth/

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' timestamp='1510232848' post='3404834']
Don't know if anybody has linked to this.... http://sfguitarworks.com/the-great-cable-myth/
[/quote]

Ah you've introduced real science that will never do! What about the punchy mids and the mellow tones, I'm not having it


Treble on the outside and bass in the centre, honestly what did people do in science lessons at school?!

[TimR]

Wow! Where do I get a cable that stores charge from?

[MoonBassAlpha]

All cables will store charge if the inner conductor is properly insulated from the outer braid. It is exactly how (non-electrolytic) capacitors work.