Going through the desk.

[Froggy]

Further to the connecting to the PA thread, I have a question about connecting to the desk.
I usually play Bass>Effects>Amp>Cabs while the rest if the band (2 guitars and keys) go into the desk and out through the PA.
We don't have subs for the PA.
Is there any reason to go through the desk? What are the advantages/disadvantages? Finally, how would I achieve this?

My amp had a DI out with a post/pre switch, we dont have a d3dicated soundman, and most of our gigs are pub/club venues.

Thanks in advance for any help.

[stingrayPete1977]

Depends how good your foh speakers are imo, I've got no subs but the tops are good and can handle bass and kick drum without the need for subs or at the cost of the vocals (that's why we bought them), lower stage volume and a more even spread of your bass sound especially the mids and above is better than trying to have back line at foh volume, many people here disagree.

[nilebodgers]

If you don't have subs then don't bother going through the desk, you aren't going to gain anything as your amp will still have to carry all the bottom end.

(the only exception would be if you are making a recording and then you'd go in to the desk either via a DI box or your amp DI out so you could be in the recording mix, but your channel wouldn't be routed to the desk out)

[Froggy]

Thanks guys, that's what I thought but never hurts to check.

[Graham]

With my main band, I only go through the PA via an EBS pre-amp/DI. We use subs when the venue is large enough, but quite often don't. It keeps down the on-stage volume and lets the singer balance the FOH volume.

I can find the subs add an overpowering amount of low-frequencies to the mix and turn my bass into rumble beneath everything else, rather than a clear instrument.

Thinking about it, removing the (EBS) amp and just DIing, rather than doing both has improved things in that regard I think

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='nilebodgers' timestamp='1510321324' post='3405579']
If you don't have subs then don't bother going through the desk, you aren't going to gain anything as your amp will still have to carry all the bottom end.
[/quote]

Nope. The bulk of the bass that you are hearing is going to be coming out the tops. Does your average home stereo with bookshelf speakers not enable you to hear the bass due to the lack of bass....?

Subs add weight to the note and you won't get anywhere like a sub response out of your standard bass cabinets. There's no reason why you can't use decent full range tops for putting your bass through and get great results.

[Dan Dare]

It can be useful to send some bass (and some kick drum) into the PA so your backline doesn't have to be loud enough on stage to fill the entire place. It fattens things nicely.

[casapete]

Depending on the quality / output of your PA, be mindful of bass (and also kick drum)  reducing headroom

in the PA mix for everything else. If it copes then fine, but more basic systems may well be compromised by

putting too much through it. 

[Phil Starr]

You are right to identify the need for a dedicated sound person. That makes one of the advantages of going through the PA less easy to achieve.

The advantages of going through the PA are simple enough. Going through the PA means someone out where the audience are can balance the sound for them meaning the whole band sound better.

Secondly any sound going on behind the mic line will be picked up by the vocal mics, including your bass. This muddies up the sound going through the PA and means you can never get a clean vocal feed.

Then there is the issue of the sound level on stage. High levels damage your hearing long term and make it difficult for us to really hear each other well. Singers are often forced to belt out their vocals straining their voices and making it far harder to sing with any inflection or subtlety just to be heard over the racket. Without any help from the PA you have no choice about volume, it has to be loud enough for the audience.

The only advantage of not going through the PA is simplicity. No mics or Di's means less to go wrong and setting up is simple enough for all to understand. Turn up until you are loud enough to match the drums and no-one is louder than each other and then just play. The balance will be the same for every song and whist it might not be perfect it shouldn't be too far out if every band member is sensible. This only works though in small venues if one of the instruments won't reach the back of a big venue you've pretty much got to accept low sound values or all go through the PA.

[Froggy]

Again, thank you all for the clarifications. I seriously doubt our PA has the ability to handle everything. We are slowly upgrading everything so in the future I suspect that I'll be able to make use of the advice offered but for now I'll just have to try to get a good sound and not muddy the vocals too much.

[Monkey Steve]

If you are going to do it and cut out the amp completely, then you might want to look at an amp simulator.  I use an Ampeg SVT when allowed to have my amp on stage, but for most gigs I'm DI'd and go through a Tech 21 VT Bass pedal, now augmented with an Ampeg SCR-DI for extra SVT tone.

If you don't need to replicate the tone of the amp then you might want to look at something just for the signal eq that you would otherwise do before it hits the cab (depending on how well that can be replicated through the PA)