Upgrading speakers on existing cabs?

[Al Krow]

Just seen this on another thread and immediately thought - what a bl**dy good idea! So rather than replacing my Markbass combo, which I was thinking of doing (and key reason is to get a step up in speaker quality) just wondering whether it might simply be possible to upgrade its 12" speaker (and driver?) to something more high end and whether that can be done economically or whether I'll just need to bite the bullet and trade it in for something costing significantly more in the shape of a separate head and cab?

24 minutes ago, JPJ said:

Take a look at the TC Electronics BG250 208, its pretty small but can still hold its own in a rehearsal or quiet band situation. I've upgraded the 8" speakers in mine to give a total load of 4 ohms meaning I get the full 250W output without an extension cab. Personally, I prefer this combo to the PJB Briefcase it replaced. It 'breathes' a little easier and is warmer and more natural sounding to my old ears.

[Phil Starr]

Hi Al, I'm just about to set off so no time to answer now, but in the meantime a question. What exactly do you want from an upgrade? Sounds stupid but are you looking for different tone, more bass, greater volume or what?

[Al Krow]

Hi Phil, so here's the thing. I played my Markbass combo head (it's essentially an LM3) through a mate's Tecamp Puma 2x12  a while back and it made a very noticeable difference to the sound in terms of clarity and tone as compared to the 1x12 speaker on the combo (which btw isn't bad - it's effectively a £400 Markbass Traveller). 

So I concluded (I hope reasonably) that the quality of the cab in the overall signal chain was probably one of the most important pieces of jigsaw and that I would get more benefit in spending extra on getting a quality cab, say an extra £350 (which I hate to say is a little less than I've just recently spent on a Ciocks DC5 power supply and a ridiculously fun Pigtronix M2) than spending that same amount on pretty much anything else, as I'm pretty happy with my basses and pups and, perhaps choice of EQ points apart ,the LM3 is a very capable and well loved amp head.

So I guess, higher quality in terms of clarity and tone rather than anything else to answer your Q. Cheers, Al.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Al Krow

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

A driver upgrade may be possible, but you'd have to know the full set of T/S specs of the original to make that determination. As for a 212 versus a 112, the 212 will almost always sound better, no matter what the drivers are. For that matter virtually any two cabs together will sound better than either alone. That's a basic property of how speakers work. 

As for this:

Quote

I've upgraded the 8" speakers in mine to give a total load of 4 ohms meaning I get the full 250W output without an extension cab.

Changing from an 8 ohm to 4 ohm load will have little, if any, effect. Many factors can result in an improvement, but impedance is seldom one of them.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[Al Krow]

Cheers Bill, I was hoping you'd be along shortly!

So simply replacing the speaker cone (together with driver) is not a straightforward thing to do is what I'm hearing? And my 1x12 was never likely to compete with a 2x12 (or the 210 that I've just recently acquired) in terms of sound quality? Hmmm...so going for a completely new cab (as a 212 or 210) rather than upgrading the12" the speaker on the combo was actually the right thing to do from what your saying?

And I totally get that any 'upgrade' to manufacturer's specs is very rarely recovered on a subsequent sale...

Edited November 18, 2017 by Al Krow

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Again, you might get a better result with a different driver, but you may not. Before you can fix something you have to find out if it's broken. That means finding the specs and frequency response chart for the original driver, which amp manufacturers are loathe to reveal. That said, the drivers in most combos tend to be low end,  and a pair of low end tens or twelves will work better than one low end twelve. They wouldn't work better than, say, an Eminence 3012HO, but drivers of that ilk aren't found in combos. 

[JPJ]

7 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

As for this:

Changing from an 8 ohm to 4 ohm load will have little, if any, effect. Many factors can result in an improvement, but impedance is seldom one of them.

I must have been lucky then, because the upgrade certainly released something that wasn’t there before. Maybe a happy coincidence of a better spec’d driver that just happened to work in the same box? 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I can't say without seeing the specs, but there are at least four that are more significant than impedance.

[grandad]

5 hours ago, JPJ said:

I must have been lucky then, because the upgrade certainly released something that wasn’t there before. Maybe a happy coincidence of a better spec’d driver that just happened to work in the same box? 

I am I think familiar with this particular upgrade and it is a sealed cab. I only checked the manufacturer's recommendations and EBS = FS/Qes. The marked improvement I believe is due to the higher figures for sensitivity and Xmax. To attempt an upgrade for a vented enclosure is a different kettle of fish and I have sought and would always seek advice on such.

 

[Elfrasho]

I upgraded speakers in an old 2x10 cab i had. Basslite s2010 were the speakers. I may have been lucky but they improved the cabinet immensely. 

[chris_b]

5 minutes ago, Elfrasho said:

I upgraded speakers in an old 2x10 cab i had. Basslite s2010 were the speakers. I may have been lucky but they improved the cabinet immensely. 

An "old" 210?

If you start from a low point it isn't very difficult to get a better sound. Many cheap and older cabs were/are just cheap drivers in a box. Built to a low price point.

It would be easier to get a better sound because you're installing the drivers they couldn't use in the original design because it would have made the cab too expensive. When you start using good drivers you also have to start specifically designing the cab to bring out the better qualities of that driver, or else you're wasting its potential.

If you start with a decent cab it will be harder to improve the sound. They will already be using better quality components and will have spent spent some time designing the cab.

[Elfrasho]

33 minutes ago, chris_b said:

An "old" 210?

If you start from a low point it isn't very difficult to get a better sound. Many cheap and older cabs were/are just cheap drivers in a box. Built to a low price point.

It would be easier to get a better sound because you're installing the drivers they couldn't use in the original design because it would have made the cab too expensive. When you start using good drivers you also have to start specifically designing the cab to bring out the better qualities of that driver, or else you're wasting its potential.

If you start with a decent cab it will be harder to improve the sound. They will already be using better quality components and will have spent spent some time designing the cab.

Yes, an old. 

[Phil Starr]

On ‎17‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 16:57, Al Krow said:

Hi Phil, so here's the thing. I played my Markbass combo head (it's essentially an LM3) through a mate's Tecamp Puma 2x12  a while back and it made a very noticeable difference to the sound in terms of clarity and tone as compared to the 1x12 speaker on the combo (which btw isn't bad - it's effectively a £400 Markbass Traveller). 

So I concluded (I hope reasonably) that the quality of the cab in the overall signal chain was probably one of the most important pieces of jigsaw and that I would get more benefit in spending extra on getting a quality cab, say an extra £350 (which I hate to say is a little less than I've just recently spent on a Ciocks DC5 power supply and a ridiculously fun Pigtronix M2) than spending that same amount on pretty much anything else, as I'm pretty happy with my basses and pups and, perhaps choice of EQ points apart ,the LM3 is a very capable and well loved amp head.

So I guess, higher quality in terms of clarity and tone rather than anything else to answer your Q. Cheers, Al.

Hi Al, replacing speakers is tricky in two ways, neither of them insuperable but you need to know. One is that speakers need to be matched to cabs especially in tuned/ported cabs. without doing that you won't get the best out of the speaker and at worst it can de-rate the power handling of the driver. People here will help you with what you need to do to re-tune the cab but it might mean taking a saw to the cab, difficult if you need to sell it later. The second is that all speakers have their own character and you won't know what they will sound like until they are bought and installed.

If you are trying out your MB with the Tecamp then you can go on trying it out with other speakers without having to do any surgery. If you find a dream 1x12 in a cab the same size as your combo it might be simple to do a swap, or not. Would you be happy to take your amp out of the combo and make up a new sleeve for it so you could use it just as an amp? Or would you be better off selling the combo and buying a separates system? £350 plus whatever you get by selling your combo would buy you a lot of good possible choices. Maybe start with the MB III if you like that amp. I settled on the MB Tube after hearing a fellow BC'ers MB III.

The problem is that if you alter your combo it will lose value, not a problem if you can do a straight swap and swap the original speaker back if you decide to sell. You might be lucky and be able to fit something like the Eminence 3012HO which is a lovely speaker, lightweight and great excursion/power handling without having to do too much to the cab. Add a second in an add on cab and you'd have huge sound and power handling if you needed that little bit more. I'd need to do some calculations to see if that would work and no-one can guarantee you'd like the sound, that would come down to personal taste.