Interesting FRFR story..

[BigRedX]

20 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

A good few years back, I used to play in an acoustic trio. I had a stereo setup comprising of two 2x10s, each with a separate head powering them. They were placed in front of me tilted back towards me like a monitor - with a wedge for the vocals and guitars in the middle. Sounded bloody ace - and nobody on a shared bill really got it. Best thing is... nobody asked to use it.

Similarly, I remember somebody asking if they could borrow my rig on another shared line up gig. I was just relying on a wedge on the stage... I said, knock yourself out, reached into my rucksack and pulled out a Microbass 2. The look of panic on his face was priceless. Their drummer asking the drummer in my band for cymbals and sticks(!) won the prize though.

In the 90s I was what superficially looked like a conventional rig, but closer inspection revealed that there were only 3 easily adjustable controls - the input gain on the Peavey bassfex at the start of the signal chain and the two output volumes on the power amp that fed the top and bottom of a bi-amped system. Many of the patches I used didn't make any sound at all on their own because they included MIDI-controlled gates and filters that only opened when the sequencer part for the correct song was run. I had a default patch that essentially connected the input to the output via the crossover that I made available to anyone who needed to use my bass rig at a gig. Needless to say few other bassists did.

Edited December 5, 2017 by BigRedX

[EBS_freak]

"Here mate, you can use my rig... but I'm not sure these customer inears will fit in your ear. Oh... and excuse the wax, I've had a bit of an ear infection of late."

Surefire no share gig win

Edited December 5, 2017 by EBS_freak

[bassjim]

12 hours ago, molan said:

I’m sure this sounds a bit silly but I love the fact that I’ve been down to one trip to and from the car for each gig for some time now. 

To be fair I can carry the 2 x 10 in one hand, amp in the other, leads and pedals over a shoulder in a laptop bag and bass on my back. If its a distance that warrants it I will. But either way the others all take an age to do their set up so 2 trips  gives me something to do.

[EBS_freak]

23 hours ago, bassjim said:

To be fair I can carry the 2 x 10 in one hand, amp in the other, leads and pedals over a shoulder in a laptop bag and bass on my back. If its a distance that warrants it I will. But either way the others all take an age to do their set up so 2 trips  gives me something to do.

You running the Proline 2x10? That's still a fair one arm lift!

[tauzero]

I've got a pair of RCF ART 710As for PA duties. Specs say 50-20kHz frequency response, max SPL 129dB, 700W RMS power split 500/200 between woofer and tweeter. It would be nice to leave my pair of Berg AE112s at home and run through the PA, perhaps using Tecamp Puma/BF One10 for bass monitoring. This is up against a not overly loud unmiced drummer (maybe I could put a bit of kick in the mix), and keys would also go through the PA. Am I being over-optimistic in thinking of doing this?

[EBS_freak]

There's only one way to find out. You may have to roll a bit of bottom end out of the bass with those... but without hearing what your band is doing, then, its hard to call. If you were doing a laid back acoustic thing, then probably yes, no problem... anything above that, you're going to have to experiment. Again, don't know whats happening at your desk end - -but a compressor would defo help the speakers out too.

[Skybone]

Anyone have any experience with the 'lower end' FR powered PA speakers?

Had a look at some today, the Mackie Thump looks good, as does the Behringer and the Alto ones.

[la bam]

The thumps are reknowned by djs for being underpowered.

The alto ts112a and ts115a are excellent for the money, but they do clip early (around 11/12 oclock) and again djs report a lot of drivers blowing. (Mine blew as well).

[Dood]

13 hours ago, Skybone said:

Anyone have any experience with the 'lower end' FR powered PA speakers?

Had a look at some today, the Mackie Thump looks good, as does the Behringer and the Alto ones.

I don't have personal experience using 'lower end' monitors for FRFR say in conjunction with the Helix (and bass), but in general, unless you are playing at a volume that isn't pushing them at all, I'd steer clear for handling the transients of bass guitar. (Unless you are enjoying the sound of a brickwall limiter and an HPF set at 100hz possibly!) 

[Skybone]

I'm actually using an HD500x instead of a Helix. At rehearsals, the room has an old Peavey head with 2x 4x10's. The Peavey has a "Power Amp" in socket on the front panel, so I just tend to use that. The band I'm in hasn't gigged yet, but we're going to do a demo in the new year & try and get some gigs off the back of that. I do have a Hartke HA4000 & an unmatched 2x10 that I can plug the HD into, but I was wondering whether I should just get an FRFR / Powered PA Speaker instead.

[FuNkShUi]

9 hours ago, Skybone said:

 At rehearsals, the room has an old Peavey head with 2x 4x10's. 

Do they supply a new set of ear drums for everyone on the way out? 

[Bridgehouse]

27 minutes ago, FuNkShUi said:

Do they supply a new set of ear drums for everyone on the way out? 

If it's like most studios I've been to only 2 of the 8 speakers actually work (intermittently)

[Skybone]

Think the amp's only rated at about 130w.

[CameronJ]

Been reading up about the QSC K12.2 and am now mulling over the potential to replace my rig with one of these to be an all in one solution for bass, keys and vocal looping in my bedroom studio. I know it stands little chance of being as good for seriously deep bass as my current rig but the rest of the benefits potentially outweigh that one drawback. Food for thought...

Edited December 28, 2017 by CameronJ

[NJE]

I am looking at a small combo or speaker cab for the house to practice through and it has brought me back to this thread.

I was looking at PJB combos, small 8” Markbass combos, etc and then thought, what about a small FR powered PA speaker?

In my head something like an Alto TS210 which is 500 watt I think, should be ‘better’ than something like the TC Electronics 208 combo? Am I way off thinking this? Are the small speakers in a tiny bass combo going to be better voiced for bass than a FR PA speaker?

[stingrayPete1977]

A good full range pa cab should be able to reproduce everything the bass combo can and more, whether the Alto or similarly priced cabs are that good I don't know.

[LukeFRC]

2 hours ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

A good full range pa cab should be able to reproduce everything the bass combo can and more, whether the Alto or similarly priced cabs are that good I don't know.

Again a note of caution - if the PA speker is designed to cross over to a sub then the bottom end might be compromised compared to what we would expect of a bass cab - they will have made different compromises when designing the bass cab 

[stingrayPete1977]

Then it wouldn't be a "Full Range" speaker anyway would it? 

[Tubster]

A very interesting read - veering wildly but all useful,stuff.

Couple of points caught my eye Re speaker brand choice and mixers.

1.The qsc vs Yamaha vs RCF thing. They all do a nice job but of the 3, qsc wins for me (yes we have them, not k12 but k8 and the y kill!). However, we pair them with a small 12” alto sub which handles additional low end on bass, kick and keys. It’s a 350 Euro piece and so far has been exemplary creating by far the biggest positive change in our sound. It’s easy to lug and was cheap but what a difference!! Another poster mentioned having RCF 310a - well perhaps this could be your solution?

We are In SW Spain and do bars, chiringuitos, lots of beach type places up to about 250 people. Above that, pa is supplied. Our focus is on high quality, compact and easy to schlep. Behringer is ubiquitous here in installations. Nothing wrong with Behringer  per se, but being used and abused by countless bands, filling up with sand and at the mercy of the sun, all factors which tend to degrade the output - we avoid when we can.

IMO, using 15”s for vocals is not ideal. The RCFs with larger coil for the highs might offset the ‘slowness’ of the 15 but my money is on 10” or 12”s for vocals. Ideally, we would choose higher end rcf, Meyer, nexo etc but keeping it real our next step will be to get a pair of qsc k10.2 and use the k8s as monitors.

2. Mixers - saw the suggestions re digital. The advantages are huge but we mix from the stage. We tried one, after various hiccups including mid-song  cutting out concluded that we did not need the aggro and picked up a 20 channel soundcraft (overkill for a trio?!) but Gear4Music were knocking  mfx out for £249. It works ALL the time.

oh yea, use an AER AMP THREE for most gigs and di out to the board. Have to confess to being a dinosaur but might consider a qsc 12.2 next time round!

 

[stingrayPete1977]

It's never a simple as x is good y is bad is it? The RCF 15"s are excellent, there's no slowness in the 735 or 745 but they are £1000 each, plus you don't a sub so no matter how good or cheap the alto sub is it's an extra cost and storage/haulage.

¿puedes hablar español Tubster, donde en el Sur tú tocas con tu groupo? 

[Tubster]

Tocamos entre Cadíz y Màlaga. Mi Español es fatal!

The RCFs are great but I still maintain 12” is the way to go with vocals vs 15”. However, there is no perfect solution but it’s fun trying. RCF has such an amazing range. I have QSC as I brought them with us from the US. 

My main point by mentioning the ALTO is that a small, inexpensive and compact sub can add a great deal to a pair of smaller speakers such as the rcf 310a. Not saying that ALTO is the ultimate small compact sub but it works for us for now. Nice thing is you can go rent a sub and give it a whirl.

Do you play in Spain? 

[la bam]

Please dont forget when choosing frfr to check the 'throw' of the speakers when using for bass.

Some speakers sound awesome when fairly close up but then disappear when 20 yards away. Some maintain character a little longer, some carry for a large distance, and some lose all their greatness as soon as you walk away from them.

So check they still sound great where you need them to sound great.

[Dood]

37 minutes ago, la bam said:

Please dont forget when choosing frfr to check the 'throw' of the speakers when using for bass.

Some speakers sound awesome when fairly close up but then disappear when 20 yards away. Some maintain character a little longer, some carry for a large distance, and some lose all their greatness as soon as you walk away from them.

So check they still sound great where you need them to sound great.

I suspect what you are referring to is Polar Response, Dynamic Response and Transient Response as well as just the ability to be 'loud'! 

[la bam]

Probably

By 'throw' i mean how far not only the volume, but also the quality of the sound travels.

I dj'd outdoors at a wedding with the dxr12s and the sound was amazing from a fairly long way away. No loss of quality at all.

Ive also used other quality speakers that sounded fantastic, but where all the bass response dies off a very short distance from the stage. (Which unless you tested it first you wouldnt realise).

[EBS_freak]

2 hours ago, Tubster said:

 

The RCFs are great but I still maintain 12” is the way to go with vocals vs 15”.

And when you realise that the design of the 735 and 745 means that the vast majority of the vocals are going through the horn and not the woofer because the horns in those boxes can do way more than those typically found in their competitors. (Much lower crossover points) You also can't say that a 12 is better or worse than a 15 in a PA box - that depends on the horn that it is coupled with and the design of the box it is in.

A QSC 12 will not keep up in the lows with either the 735 or 745. Yes, you can add a sub to extend out - that's more to carry... but you could also add a 8003 to your 7x5 - which compared with to a QSC with sub will still be easy sailing.

I get that you dig your QSCs but the 735 and 745 are completely different beasts compared to the other cabs mentioned here. Check out cabs with 3 and 4 inch horns and you'll see what I mean. The thing is, you won't find those sort of horns in 1. A plastic box (apart from the 735 and 745) and 2. Under 1k (or even under 2k) - apart from the 735 and 745. That is why these particular boxes are killer.

If you must have a 12, check out the 732 and report back - truthfully.  I wouldn't run the 732 without a sub though - unlike the 735 or 745.