Interesting FRFR story..

[FuNkShUi]

Looking at some FRFR speakers, i'm thinking of staying with RCF, just because of how impressed ive been with our bands PA.
How important is the voice coil going to be for a bass player?
For example the 715s are around £550.
But the 725s, and 735s etc are all around £870.
I understand the need for these if the main use for the speakers is singing. Do i need a bigger voice coil for bass though?
What say yee experts of all things FR/FR?

[Al Krow]

7 minutes ago, FuNkShUi said:

Looking at some FRFR speakers, i'm thinking of staying with RCF, just because of how impressed ive been with our bands PA.
How important is the voice coil going to be for a bass player?
For example the 715s are around £550.
But the 725s, and 735s etc are all around £870.
I understand the need for these if the main use for the speakers is singing. Do i need a bigger voice coil for bass though?
What say yee experts of all things FR/FR?

What is your current amp and cab? Are you planning on using your RCF as backline just for your bass or to be part of the PA? If it's just going to be backline, I'd question what the point of doing that is?

I definitely understand the thinking if you're putting the bass through the PA and making sure the PA is capable of handling low end but, apart from folk such as Cam who are solo musicians and / or playing other instruments / singing, I really don't see what the benefit of swapping a lightweight quality bass rig for a heavier FRFR is as backline? In fact I'd personally view it as a retrograde step. Tin hat coming out... 

[Bridgehouse]

Compact setup and FRFR is de rigeur. I start the trends others have been doing for years 

[FuNkShUi]

@Al Krow I currently run a LMII and a single TKS S112 (i do have 2, but have never needed the 2nd).
I have the option of running through the PA, but would intend to use it as backline. 
It seems to me, the people who have been going for the FR/FR route all find their sound to be better?
That's why i'm asking though

[Al Krow]

25 minutes ago, FuNkShUi said:

@Al Krow I currently run a LMII and a single TKS S112 (i do have 2, but have never needed the 2nd).
I have the option of running through the PA, but would intend to use it as backline. 
It seems to me, the people who have been going for the FR/FR route all find their sound to be better?
That's why i'm asking though

Hi there. If you're using it as backline and you're happy with your LMII and TKS112 (both of which are really good bits of kit) then IMHO there is zero point in swapping these for an RCF 715 or other even more expensive FRFR.

You'll obviously get passionate FRFR users making the case for FRFR gear on this thread (and fair enough - FRFR makes a lot of sense as a PA solution to put bass through), but if you started a general discussion thread 'Backline - amp and cab or FRFR?' and you told folk what your bass rig is and that you are happy with it, I suspect you would find a large majority of bass players saying stick with your current set up, me included.

[FuNkShUi]

That's cool.
I'm really just looking for opinions. 
The interesting thing for me is, those who have gone FR/FR, don't seem to be going back. 
That says something to me.
But don't worry, i wont just "follow the crowd". I'm just looking to get some thoughts

[stevie]

2 hours ago, FuNkShUi said:

Looking at some FRFR speakers, i'm thinking of staying with RCF, just because of how impressed ive been with our bands PA.
How important is the voice coil going to be for a bass player?
 

Voice coil size is just one way of seeing through the exaggerated claims made by manufacturers of audio gear. As the technology currently stands, a 2" coil should handle up to 200W, a 2.5" coil up to 300W and a 3" coil between 350 and 500W. There are other factors involved apart from voice coil diameter, but I wouldn't be confident using anything smaller than 2.5" (unless it's in multiples) for bass backline. Your TKS 112 has a 2.5" coil, by the way, Funkshui.

(I'm talking bass drivers here, not compression drivers)

Edited April 18, 2018 by stevie

[Al Krow]

55 minutes ago, FuNkShUi said:

That's cool.
I'm really just looking for opinions. 
The interesting thing for me is, those who have gone FR/FR, don't seem to be going back. 
That says something to me.
But don't worry, i wont just "follow the crowd". I'm just looking to get some thoughts

I personally think FRFR works well for folk who have got decent amp/cab sims on their fx and potentially less well without. 

So one of the guitarists I work with forked out £1,200 for a 'full fat' Line6 Helix (when they originally came out) - he needs something transparent to put that through and not to 'colour' what the Helix is delivering; he's just forked out on an Alto 1x12" FRFR which seems to suit him fine.

The other guitarist, who has a 'normal' pedal board but no amp/cab sims, A/B'd through a comparable quality studio guitar amp and studio PA at rehearsal on Monday night. No question - the guitar amp delivered a fuller / better tone.

There also are plenty of bass players not making the move to FRFR in the first place (me included - the quality / weight benefits didn't stack up for me). That should maybe also say something to you? I don't think there is a 'right' answer here - just different options some of which will work better for some set ups than others. 

Edited April 18, 2018 by Al Krow

[BigRedX]

30 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I personally think FRFR works well for folk who have got decent amp/cab sims on their fx and potentially less well without. 

So one of the guitarists I work with forked out £1,200 for Line6 Helix (when they originally came out) - he needs something transparent to put that through and not to 'colour' what the Helix is delivering.

We tried the other guitarist with a 'normal' pedal board (but no amp/cab sims) at rehearsal on Monday night. We A/B'd through a comparable quality studio guitar amp and studio PA. No question - the guitar amp delivered a fuller / better tone.

There are plenty of bass players not making the move to FRFR in the first place. That should maybe also say something to you? I don't think there is a 'right' answer here - just different options some of which will work better for some set ups than others. 

"Better" tone is always subjective. "Fuller" tone might well not be appropriate in a band mix as it will likely be fighting with other instruments for sonic space.

Also how long did you spend experimenting with the various parameter on the Helix before deciding the "real" amp sounded better? IME it takes at least a couple of rehearsals to get the sounds dialled in so that they work in the context of the band. What sounds as though it is going to work when played on its own at home at practice volumes is going to need more editing when you play it at rehearsal/gig volumes with the other instruments in the mix. I'm still tweaking some of my sounds. They get better each time.

And very few of my Helix patches have an amp sim in the signal chain and none so far have a cab sim. After all an amplifier is just some tone controls in front of circuitry that can drive a loud speaker to the required volume, and all bass amps and cabs are colouring your sound in one way or another. So on the Helix all you need is some tone shaping that works in a pleasing way to your ears and allows the bass to sound the way you want it and you are set. Whether this is a stand-alone tone module or the tone shaping within an amp sim is irrelevant.

Edited April 18, 2018 by BigRedX

[lemmywinks]

I always liked the sound of my bass through a PA anyway, in fact bass straight into the desk is probably my favourite bass tone! Pros and cons of swapping an amp out for an FRFR (for me anyway) are as follows:

Pros

- Can carry the entire thing with one hand.

- Loads of better placement options on stage especially if you're tall, points at your head and can be put anywhere down to small size.

- Sounds similar to what the audience hear, a clear representation of my bass.

- Works very well with existing DI/EQ pedals and pedalboards.

- Was £100 better off after selling my bass amp.

- Takes up much less space in the house.

- Set up in a couple of minutes.

Cons

- Doesn't look as nice as my old Markbass rig.

 

I can't emphasize the placement part enough, I've always struggled with hearing myself due to being tall which was corrected when I got the MarkBass Club cabs as they tilt back. However that posed a new problem as I either had to find space where I could have 3ft of bass cabs on the floor or have one on top of the other in a wedge position. The small size of the QSC completely eliminates this, it fits in between the legs of our lights stand so even on a tiny stage there is always room for it, I can have it at the front of stage pointing back and it doesn't look out of place too.

Worth noting that my amp is purely for stage monitoring, we have a decent RCF PA which does all the donkey work and I was using compact DI/EQ boxes like the Fishman and MXR M80 to DI directly without any amp sims. Swapping my amp out for an FRFR was the logical step for me, should have done it years ago.

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited March 1, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[FuNkShUi]

47 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I personally think FRFR works well for folk who have got decent amp/cab sims on their fx and potentially less well without. 

So one of the guitarists I work with forked out £1,200 for a 'full fat' Line6 Helix (when they originally came out) - he needs something transparent to put that through and not to 'colour' what the Helix is delivering; he's just forked out on an Alto 1x12" FRFR which seems to suit him fine.

The other guitarist, who has a 'normal' pedal board but no amp/cab sims, A/B'd through a comparable quality studio guitar amp and studio PA at rehearsal on Monday night. No question - the guitar amp delivered a fuller / better tone.

There also are plenty of bass players not making the move to FRFR in the first place (me included - the quality / weight benefits didn't stack up for me). That should maybe also say something to you? I don't think there is a 'right' answer here - just different options some of which will work better for some set ups than others. 

Yep for sure.
And there are plenty of threads talking about the benefits of other bass amps and rigs etc.
This is the only one about FR/FR, so that's why i'm asking about them here 

 

3 minutes ago, Jus Lukin said:

The other thing to consider is that while an RCF might be fine on most stages, grinding out sleazy riffs on a Thunderbird with a roaring SVT tone does kind-of require a big hulking box throwing it out at the back of the stage to feel right! 

That is not the kind of sound i am aiming for, my back is pleased to let you know haha

[BigRedX]

12 minutes ago, Jus Lukin said:

The other thing to consider is that while an RCF might be fine on most stages, grinding out sleazy riffs on a Thunderbird with a roaring SVT tone does kind-of require a big hulking box throwing it out at the back of the stage to feel right! 

If I was playing in a band like that I'd have light-weight fold-flat Ampeg SVT and Fridge façade to go in front of my FRFR.

[stingrayPete1977]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

What is your current amp and cab? Are you planning on using your RCF as backline just for your bass or to be part of the PA? If it's just going to be backline, I'd question what the point of doing that is?

I definitely understand the thinking if you're putting the bass through the PA and making sure the PA is capable of handling low end but, apart from folk such as Cam who are solo musicians and / or playing other instruments / singing, I really don't see what the benefit of swapping a lightweight quality bass rig for a heavier FRFR is as backline? In fact I'd personally view it as a retrograde step. Tin hat coming out... 

I think you are in the wrong thread! 

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited March 1, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[MGBrown]

4 hours ago, FuNkShUi said:

Looking at some FRFR speakers, i'm thinking of staying with RCF, just because of how impressed ive been with our bands PA.
How important is the voice coil going to be for a bass player?
For example the 715s are around £550.
But the 725s, and 735s etc are all around £870.
I understand the need for these if the main use for the speakers is singing. Do i need a bigger voice coil for bass though?
What say yee experts of all things FR/FR?

I was wondering about this as well. The more expensive offerings have larger voice coils on both woofer & compression driver. This seems to allow not only more power handling but also allows the compression driver to do more of the work : The crossover frequency is lower with the premium cabs so the HF driver covers more of the frequency spectrum

Is this a big deal for bass guitar? @EBSfreak what say you Sir?

 

[Al Krow]

@BigRedX I think you may have misread my post? Two different guitarists involved here and the one with Helix has gone FRFR. In summary:

Guitarist 1. Helix with cab sims => he prefers FRFR; seems to be fine (in fact his little valve amp was pretty painful!)

Guitarist 2. 'Normal' set of analogue pedals (no cab sims) => prefered a guitar amp to the studio PA. 

With (2) it didn't take much time at all for me, drummer and guitarist to A/B guitar amp and studio PA. With that particular set up it was very obvious which was the better option (guitar amp).

I'm 100% with @Jus Lukin comments above. For anyone to say that FRFR is going to beat a quality bass amp and cab for heft, usability, and tone every time is simply talking tosh. (Just as much as someone saying the opposite).

(IMHO) FRFR is great if you want a one PA solution, have decent cab sims (or tone shaping - I take your point on that BRX) and / or are planning on using IEMs. 

Edited April 18, 2018 by Al Krow

[EBS_freak]

27 minutes ago, MGBrown said:

 

Is this a big deal for bass guitar? @EBSfreak what say you Sir?

 

It depends on what you are having to amplify. For example... If I was playing with a reggae tone, the larger voice coil would (all other factors remaining the same) be a better shout.

What you have to remember is this, dedicated bass guitar cabs rarely sport the same quality of drivers found in the comparable prices PA cabs - so you are onto a winner on a performance point. Whether you want the flat response of a PA cab vs say the colouring of a bass cab, well, that's a different thing - but that's where your modelling comes in.

[CameronJ]

2 hours ago, lemmywinks said:

I always liked the sound of my bass through a PA anyway, in fact bass straight into the desk is probably my favourite bass tone! Pros and cons of swapping an amp out for an FRFR (for me anyway) are as follows:

Pros

- Can carry the entire thing with one hand.

- Loads of better placement options on stage especially if you're tall, points at your head and can be put anywhere down to small size.

- Sounds similar to what the audience hear, a clear representation of my bass.

- Works very well with existing DI/EQ pedals and pedalboards.

- Was £100 better off after selling my bass amp.

- Takes up much less space in the house.

- Set up in a couple of minutes.

Cons

- Doesn't look as nice as my old Markbass rig.

 

I can't emphasize the placement part enough, I've always struggled with hearing myself due to being tall which was corrected when I got the MarkBass Club cabs as they tilt back. However that posed a new problem as I either had to find space where I could have 3ft of bass cabs on the floor or have one on top of the other in a wedge position. The small size of the QSC completely eliminates this, it fits in between the legs of our lights stand so even on a tiny stage there is always room for it, I can have it at the front of stage pointing back and it doesn't look out of place too.

+100 to all of this.

I’m 6’7” myself so the tilt-back element is a huge bonus, along with the added positioning options in tight spaces.

Anyone who DI’s their bass amp to PA stands to benefit from going down the FRFR monitor route, in terms of eliminating the guesswork of “my tone on stage is great but does it bear any resemblance to what the audience are hearing? 🤔🧐” and this  benefit is further amplified (‘scuse the pun) if you use effects.

This translates to an easier time finding your tone in a recording/studio environment too. If you can really be arsed with mic’ing up your bass cabs then good luck to you!

 

38 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

What you have to remember is this, dedicated bass guitar cabs rarely sport the same quality of drivers found in the comparable prices PA cabs - so you are onto a winner on a performance point. Whether you want the flat response of a PA cab vs say the colouring of a bass cab, well, that's a different thing - but that's where your modelling comes in.

This is a huge part of the argument for me. Boutique bass cab manufacturers are only just beginning to venture into the ballpark of the big PA brands as far as quality of components used. And yet said bass cab manufacturers are charging as much if not more money for boxes that lack a dedicated power amp matched specifically to the drivers, they lack DSP and they lack speaker protection - three things which come as standard in PA speakers at many price points.

Tone is subjective, yes. Performance? Less so. And tone can be tweaked with much greater ease than the raw performance of electrical components.

[MGBrown]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

It depends on what you are having to amplify. For example... If I was playing with a reggae tone, the larger voice coil would (all other factors remaining the same) be a better shout.

What you have to remember is this, dedicated bass guitar cabs rarely sport the same quality of drivers found in the comparable prices PA cabs - so you are onto a winner on a performance point. Whether you want the flat response of a PA cab vs say the colouring of a bass cab, well, that's a different thing - but that's where your modelling comes in.

Is there an advantage (for bass guitar) in a larger voice coil in the HF driver, all other things being equal? I ask because RCF make great play of the advantages for vocal reproduction.

A technical point I know...

[CameronJ]

22 minutes ago, MGBrown said:

Is there an advantage (for bass guitar) in a larger voice coil in the HF driver, all other things being equal? I ask because RCF make great play of the advantages for vocal reproduction.

A technical point I know...

I think the simple answer is yes. The benefits of having a larger voice coil for the HF driver are that the crossover point with the woofer can be lower, meaning the HF driver deals with the lions share of mids and the woofer now takes care of a narrower range of lower frequencies. So the woofer now has less work to do and can be more efficient in doing it. Which, for bass, is a great thing!

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, CameronJ said:

+Anyone who DI’s their bass amp to PA stands to benefit from going down the FRFR monitor route, in terms of eliminating the guesswork of “my tone on stage is great but does it bear any resemblance to what the audience are hearing? 🤔🧐” and this  benefit is further amplified (‘scuse the pun) if you use effects.

This translates to an easier time finding your tone in a recording/studio environment too. If you can really be arsed with mic’ing up your bass cabs then good luck to you!

I think you're mistaken if you think what you hear through a monitor on stage is ever going to be the same as what the audience is hearing through the house PA and subwoofers. 

If we are playing at a large venue with a quality in house sound system + sound engineer, I just take me, my bass and a lead and DI straight into the 'house' PA. The purpose of the on stage monitoring (provided by the 'house') has nothing to do with bass tone and everything to do with ensuring that the bass is simply heard by my band mates and that we are tight.

If we're playing at a smaller venue then the tone coming out of my amp and cab is what the audience is also hearing. Simples.

FRFR is a really good option to consider, for sure. I'm not knocking it. But to me it's certainly not clear-cut nor a slam dunk that it is a better option, just an alternative one, otherwise the 99% of bassists who continue to use an amp and cab clearly collectively have a screw loose. I don't believe that to be the case. 

Right I've said my piece and will crawl back into the undergrowth and leave the FRFR aficionados to continue to enlighten and educate us - and actually a big thank you from me on that score, I've learned a lot from some excellent contributions on this thread.

[stingrayPete1977]

6 hours ago, Jus Lukin said:

***BRX covered much of this while I was typing, but here it is anyway!***

That's very subjective though! If you're after the flattest sound possible then it may well be better, or if you have an amp sim which really works for you through flat response systems, then a flat system as backline would be a benefit. If you're just throwing it in as another option amongst all the others then it's as much 'suck it and see' as anything else. 'FRFR sounds better' means as much as 'An SVT sounds better' in the big scheme of things. 

I play a wide range of music and sometimes use a 'straight-in' sound, although often still tweak that to the room. Many of my gigs (the blues one and a 70's rock band in particular) really benefit from an amp sound- I even play with one band which, while being ostensibly quite modern in it's voice, just sounds and feels that touch better with an emulation of an SWR and 4x10. My big FRFR rig is still based around a pair of Sansamps as the pres, so while the reproduction is FRFR, sometimes the sound I make is anything but. As with anything, it's never plain old 'better'. It's a tool, and for me right now it saves having a stack of amps to suit a very varied schedule- and relies on the fact that I'm happy to use emulation if needed.

While not perhaps as FRFR as other options, my rig is based around Barefaced and a LMII or the sansamp/poweramp rack. The other thing to consider is that while an RCF might be fine on most stages, grinding out sleazy riffs on a Thunderbird with a roaring SVT tone does kind-of require a big hulking box throwing it out at the back of the stage to feel right! 

I think you are under estimating what the RCF speakers can do, massively! 

I've got a pair of RCF 735s, they'd demolish the Barefaced without breaking a sweat. 

It's s fairly simple to understand that a pair of cabs we use to amplify, drums, guitars, three vocal mics and my bass without the need for a sub or backline are going to have no trouble against a conventional bass amp if used purely as a bass amp monitor, there is no situation where a pair of RCF cabs should be maxed out when used as stage monitors anyway! 

Edited April 18, 2018 by stingrayPete1977

[CameronJ]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

I think you're mistaken if you think what you hear through a monitor on stage is ever going to be the same as what the audience is hearing through the house PA and subwoofers. 

If we are playing at a large venue with a quality in house sound system + sound engineer, I just take me, my bass and a lead and DI straight into the 'house' PA. The purpose of the on stage monitoring (provided by the 'house') has nothing to do with bass tone and everything to do with ensuring that the bass is simply heard by my band mates and that we are tight.

If we're playing at a smaller venue then the tone coming out of my amp and cab is what the audience is also hearing. Simples.

FRFR is a really good option to consider, for sure. I'm not knocking it. But to me it's certainly not clear-cut nor a slam dunk that it is a better option, just an alternative one, otherwise the 99% of bassists who continue to use an amp and cab clearly collectively have a screw loose. I don't believe that to be the case. 

Right I've said my piece and will crawl back into the undergrowth and leave the FRFR aficionados to continue to enlighten and educate us - and actually a big thank you from me on that score, I've learned a lot from some excellent contributions on this thread.

The sound through the on stage monitor may not be identical to the sound out front but provided it’s of comparable quality to the rest of your PA it’ll get you much closer than the typical coloured bass cab will. As with most things you tend to get what you pay for, so there’s no use expecting a dirt cheap monitor to match up sound-wise to a multi-thousand pound PA projecting out front, or vice versa. And of course, even if your on stage monitor is the same make and model as your PA tops, the characteristics of the room will affect the sound out front to some degree.

If you’re playing at a smaller venue then the tone coming out of your monitor (now serving as backline) is what the audience is also hearing. Simples  

Granted, using “house” stage monitors and PA might throw a spanner in the works as you’re at the mercy of whatever they give you.

For me I guess it’s just about eliminating variables. I’ve always preferred to have all my tone shaping from my basses and pedals. In that sense, me and the rest of the converts in this thread are certainly in the minority of bassists as a whole. However, I will say that since more and more pro bassists and pro guitarists (the kind who play truly massive venues and do national/international tours) are running amp modellers into FRFR monitors or in ears that there’s probably some method to our madness. Consistency of sound from venue to venue, ease of setup/tear down, cleaning up of the stage space and making the sound guy/gal’s job easier out front. 

Very few of us in this thread are at that level of gigging but clearly we still feel the advantages even though we’re only playing in our bedrooms or down at the Dog & Duck. Also, bear in mind that everyone here who is now happily living the FRFR life has had experience owning and playing through traditional amps and cabs, and having compared the two experiences are finding the monitor route to be better for them. I’d say that it’s easy to be a skeptic from afar with no meaningful experience of the very thing being criticised. You just have to try both to be able to form a balanced argument on the matter. 

@stingrayPete1977‘s comments above are totally accurate. These RCFs will stand toe to toe with bass rigs of the same driver size and win every time for both volume and heft. I’d challenge you, @Al Krow, to see about trialling one as a replacement for your backline. Use it for a couple of rehearsals and a couple of gigs (giving you a little time to dial in the kind of sound you like) and then come back here and share how you feel. You may still prefer the look of a “proper bass amp” sitting behind you but I can bet money that you’ll have changed your tune with regards to their performance.

 

p.s. Oh, and since you have a Zoom MS-60b and B3n you can even emulate your current Markbass sound and get rid of some of the subjectivity of the tone argument! It’ll be a test purely of volume, heft and dispersion.

 

p.p.s. And convenience, of course.

Edited April 18, 2018 by CameronJ

[LukeFRC]

6 hours ago, MGBrown said:

I was wondering about this as well. The more expensive offerings have larger voice coils on both woofer & compression driver. This seems to allow not only more power handling but also allows the compression driver to do more of the work : The crossover frequency is lower with the premium cabs so the HF driver covers more of the frequency spectrum

Is this a big deal for bass guitar? @EBSfreak what say you Sir?

 

A lot of PA cabs are designed to cross over to subs. 
A bass cab will often go lower than a PA cab, because it's designed not to be crossed over. If you want low end then this is a good thing.
Some of the nicer PA cabs discussed in this thread are designed to go lower and run without subs. This means you get a DSP controlled bottom end (more controlled than your bass cab) and the high mids/highs are coming out of a much nicer driver too compared to your Bass cab