Interesting FRFR story..

[CameronJ]

Ah, yes. Saw these on the Yamaha Website a few days ago and thought they looked rather nice. I say go for it, @dood!

Now the question is, how many inches?

Edited April 22, 2018 by CameronJ

[Dood]

9 hours ago, CameronJ said:

Ah, yes. Saw these on the Yamaha Website a few days ago and thought they looked rather nice. I say go for it, @dood!

Now the question is, how many inches?

Good question. 12" would seem logical but I'd really want to try the 15" version. The three way model slips outside of an agreeable weight limit. The 15" 2 way version comes in at around 25Kg which is do-able for an all-in-one meaning that all of the backline can just stay at home. Also benefiting from feeding in keys (HPF'd) and vocals for a bit of spread at the back of the stage. I would dearly love a pair of Barefaced FR800's, they'd be amazing and would replace my BBII's. The Yamaha does have a pair of inputs and the onboard DSP, accessible from the back panel could possibly be a big thumbs up. Oh and the angled cabinet for monitor use is a plus.. yes I do have a stand here for angling cabinets upwards, but I have so many silly fiddly things to deal with on stage already it's wasting time and patience. Yup, for some gigs, I wanna turn up with my Helix, Monitor(s) and a box of leads.. or less ha ha! 

[Al Krow]

A bit of a newbie question but:

Given that 12" is perfectly good (in fact many would say ideal) for dedicated bass speakers, why is 15" considered optimal if you're putting bass through a FRFR eg the Yamaha 745A etc?

[EBS_freak]

A 15 is not particularly optimal... (speakers can perform as well as other models both larger and smaller than it) it's more down to the fact that with the choice of the particular hf drivers and 15s in the RCF 735 and 745s, it allows for a lower crossover, which means the horn can do more of the work and free up the 15s to take care of more of the lows at volume. It's not any voodoo going on - it's just that RCF for whatever reason, have paired a phenomenally good horn and woofer together in those models... components of a specification that should not coexist in a box at that price point. Have a look out there and try and find anything remotely comparable. Even the new Yamahas that dood mentions, don't have components in them of comparable specs (and I would wager they are more expensive too! Although that Dante option is drool worthy in those Yammies!).

If you want the larger VCs in a smaller 12 package, the 732 may be the route for you to take, although you will drop down to a 2.5" VC in the woofer.

Edited April 23, 2018 by EBS_freak

[r16ktx]

For anybody wanting a cheaper RCF 735A or 745A  these are on Amazon

735A;

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B014XMK1O0/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1

745A;

https://www.amazon.co.uk/ART-745-15-inch-active-speaker/dp/B00JMHMJDI/ref=sr_1_2

Cheers,

Rick

[Al Krow]

Thanks EBS**. Would I be correct in thinking that you're very much RCF über alles - interested that your recommending the RCF 732A rather than e.g. the QSC K12.2 or a Yammy?

Part of the reason for me abandoning exploring the FRFR route back at the start of the thread was 'cos I felt you were very much saying that you needed a 735A or 745A rather than a 12" speaker to get a decent bass through the PA if you're not using a subwoofer? And the tick up from 2 x 39lbs for the 732 vs 2 x 47 lbs for the 735A plus the additonal costs all started to add up.

By comparison the RCF 310As (which we're putting typically 3 or 4 vocals, acoustic guitar and sax through) and working just fine as our PA, are half the price and a floaty 27lbs. Carting a 500W combo to pub gigs or smaller functions, which is still getting compliments from guitarists, weighing 37lbs is no biggie. Still struggling to see the point of changing over... but probably the time for that is if / when we need to think about upgrading our PA.

**PS when was the last time you said anything positive about EBS? I think under the Trades Descriptions Act 1972 you really should be either 'FRFR' or 'RCF' Freak now...

[EBS_freak]

EDIT - removed dodge links to Amazon.

Edited April 23, 2018 by EBS_freak

[Ba55me15ter]

If something looks too good to be true...

I just emailed that Amazon seller and got this reply:

 

 

Thank you for your email.  Our Amazon account has been hacked so please don't purchase anything from there as the items don't exist.  We are working with Amazon to rectify the situation.  We apologise for any inconvenience.

 

Kind regards

Kelly

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Thanks EBS**. Would I be correct in thinking that you're very much RCF über alles - interested that your recommending the RCF 732A rather than e.g. the QSC K12.2 or a Yammy?

Part of the reason for me abandoning exploring the FRFR route back at the start of the thread was 'cos I felt you were very much saying that you needed a 735A or 745A rather than a 12" speaker to get a decent bass through the PA if you're not using a subwoofer? And the tick up from 2 x 39lbs for the 732 vs 2 x 47 lbs for the 735A plus the additonal costs all started to add up.

By comparison the RCF 310As (which we're putting typically 3 or 4 vocals, acoustic guitar and sax through) and working just fine as our PA, are half the price and a floaty 27lbs. Carting a 500W combo to pub gigs or smaller functions, which is still getting compliments from guitarists, weighing 37lbs is no biggie. Still struggling to see the point of changing over... but probably the time for that is if / when we need to think about upgrading our PA.

**PS when was the last time you said anything positive about EBS? I think under the Trades Descriptions Act 1972 you really should be either 'FRFR' or 'RCF' Freak now...

RCF über alles - no, not at all. I will reiterate, it's just those particular models and components that are in them. I'm actually a L-Acoustics, D&B and Danley nut... but realise they are perhaps another tier above the average PA speaker. I spend a lot of time looking and trying stuff out and these (73/45s) are unique among the competition for the reasons I've mentioned above a couple of times. The QSC and Yamaha stuff (and I guess JBL, EV and all the other likely candidates at that price point) is certainly of comparable quality but not performance - and if you ask and 735 or 745 user on here, they will all tell you the same, they never struggle for headroom or getting vocals heard. First hand experience with other cabs has shown me that not to be the case with other manufacturers examples in that price range. If any other brand put the same quality of components in any model of their cabs, I would be singing the same praises. I've shared a few conversations with @stevie about these specific cabs - we aren't quite sure how they are managing to manufacturer and sell them for the price that they are. They certainly don't appear to be making much profit from them per unit - or at least, we can't really figure out how they are doing it if they are.

OK to clarify the subwoofer situation - the 735 or 745 will allow you to push out some serious bass without subwoofers. You wouldn't use small subs, so don't use small tops when you are expecting them to shift a lot of hard hitting bass. When I mean serious bass, I mean gig volumes of bass and kick drum. The 310s will definitely not do that... or at anywhere near he same volume. My experience with the 745s is that you can actually sack off all the backline, run IEMs and let the FOH speakers do the amplification for the whole band. This means less bleed on stage and better dispersion for say, guitar, where guitar amps are typically very unidirectional. If you are a member of the audience standing in front of a guitar amp, you are likely to be blasted. Two steps to the right or left and the guitar amp may be unbalanced with the rest of the band. By putting the whole band out of the FOH, you don't get any of these problems. My pitch for the 735 or 745 is that it can form half of a formidable PA but if you need a combo, it will more than happily do the job of a traditional rig also. I think there's a dual conversation happening in this thread which is muddying the water a little for some.

EBS haven't done anything for a while... certainly nothing that makes me sit up and take notice! Still love their amps though - the HD350 is still my fave bass amp of all time and I'll still take it out on a whim from time to time (usually a dep where they aren't geared up with a beefy PA and IEMs)... although my personal main rig is now a Kemper (no speakers) and inears going into a beefy PA? Why, because it sounds better on stage (my IEM mix is coming from a dedicated mixing desk with full stereo, compression fx etc)... and sounds clearer out front (nothing to bleed apart from the drums into the vocal mics). Who wouldn't want to change?

Edited April 23, 2018 by EBS_freak

[stingrayPete1977]

41 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Thanks EBS**. Would I be correct in thinking that you're very much RCF über alles - interested that your recommending the RCF 732A rather than e.g. the QSC K12.2 or a Yammy?

Part of the reason for me abandoning exploring the FRFR route back at the start of the thread was 'cos I felt you were very much saying that you needed a 735A or 745A rather than a 12" speaker to get a decent bass through the PA if you're not using a subwoofer? And the tick up from 2 x 39lbs for the 732 vs 2 x 47 lbs for the 735A plus the additonal costs all started to add up.

By comparison the RCF 310As (which we're putting typically 3 or 4 vocals, acoustic guitar and sax through) and working just fine as our PA, are half the price and a floaty 27lbs. Carting a 500W combo to pub gigs or smaller functions, which is still getting compliments from guitarists, weighing 37lbs is no biggie. Still struggling to see the point of changing over... but probably the time for that is if / when we need to think about upgrading our PA.

**PS when was the last time you said anything positive about EBS? I think under the Trades Descriptions Act 1972 you really should be either 'FRFR' or 'RCF' Freak now...

Any system is only as strong as it's weakest link and there's some understandable confusion regarding the FRFR being used just for bass monitoring on stage, as backline without pa support and backline with pa support and all the variables of the pa system. 

Strangely neither me nor EBS_freak use the setup we're harping on about as such, I use either a small combo or a bigger bass amp and he uses in ears mostly. 

We both use RCF as foh though and we both own our Pa systems rather than band shared so the option to use the pa as backline or monitor for other gigs where we either dep or have full professional pa support would allow us to use the RCF kit. 

With your current kit essentially you would be governed to a venue where the drums and bass can cut through and the stage area volume has to be loud enough for people at the back to hear. 

Edited April 23, 2018 by stingrayPete1977

[EBS_freak]

3 hours ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

Strangely neither me nor EBS_freak use the setup we're harping on about as such, I use either a small combo or a bigger bass amp and he uses in ears mostly. 

But am I right in thinking... and I'm sticking my neck out here... if you hadn't already owned your backline, your backline would be looking more preamp and PA shaped?

[Al Krow]

4 hours ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

Strangely neither me nor EBS_freak use the setup we're harping on about as such, I use either a small combo or a bigger bass amp...

I'm really glad you shared that. 

It does prompt the question 'why', if you so strongly believe that FRFR is the better route? 

If it's just 'cos it's more convenient to use the combo or your bigger bass amp has more heft and there ain't actually too much difference to the bass sound in the mix, well fair do's. But that does say quite a bit, Pete. In particular that FRFR is just one option and not the option; a point a few of us have been 'bravely' venturing to make on this FRFR fan-club thread!

[EBS_freak]

Just as the other side to the story - I use IEMs and put all my faith in the 745s (I also use the same setup regularly with a K-Array, D&B and L-Acoustics setup) out front. And it works well. Much better than any other setup that I've ever sported for the reasons that I've mentioned in the thread.

I've also run my Kemper through a 745 more than a few times. It works as a guitar rig. It works as a bass rig. It works without breaking a sweat - I think this was one of the swaying points for BigRedX - he uses his setup to replace both a guitar and bass setup.

With regards to Pete's setup, he's using 2 735s as front of house. When he bought them, he already owned his backline. If he was to sell the backline, he would lose a lot of money to replace them with say another 735. For monitoring purposes, the traditional small combo does him fine - but he uses the 735s to push the bass out at volume - as he does for the rest of the band (when he finally got the guitarist to turn down and rely on the PA to get his guitar heard). I think I already know his answer to the question I posed above... if he hadn't already have bought his backline, I don't think he would be running the same setup now. So I don't think it has anything to do with convenience - its more to do with the fact the 735s do all the hard work and his combo gives him enough on stage as a monitor - and replacing it doesn't really make that much economical sense.

I don't think the point goes unnoticed - of course, there's options - including traditional backline. But those that have ventured into using PA cabs (either for FOH or on stage in a more traditional setup) and modern modellers are certainly seeing the rewards. If I had my way, nobody would be using amps unless they are on a large stage... the sound you can get without them is much more controlled and better when it comes to a balanced mix.

I still think there is an underlying cross purpose in this thread... 

 

[BigRedX]

IME the bigger the stage the less reliant I am on backline for monitoring. When I was playing with The Terrortones once we were on anything decent sized (Camden Underworld or bigger) the only time I could hear my bass from my rig when when I was stood directly in front of it. Anywhere else on stage I would be using the monitors to hear what I was playing.

[EBS_freak]

3 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

IME the bigger the stage the less reliant I am on backline for monitoring. When I was playing with The Terrortones once we were on anything decent sized (Camden Underworld or bigger) the only time I could hear my bass from my rig when when I was stood directly in front of it. Anywhere else on stage I would be using the monitors to hear what I was playing.

Not exactly the point I was going for - but yes, true. I was more going for the spill into the mics and over powering the front of house mix!

[Al Krow]

29 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Not exactly the point I was going for - but yes, true. I was more going for the spill into the mics and over powering the front of house mix!

+1 I have to agree with the spill into the mics point. I thought it was only me, but obviously not! 

I found that simply by moving my combo forward, together with a little reduction in bass EQ has sorted the boominess we were getting without any recourse to HPF. I assume this is the 'spill into the mics you are referring to'? 

Need to balance that with the drummer worrying he might not hear the bass, which he mentioned for the first the first time at a gig on Saturday, but we can maybe address that with a better monitor (currently using a small 150W 5" for the vocals). 

Edited April 23, 2018 by Al Krow

[stingrayPete1977]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

But am I right in thinking... and I'm sticking my neck out here... if you hadn't already owned your backline, your backline would be looking more preamp and PA shaped?

That's the point I am trying to make to Al, if my kit got stolen I'd get an extra 735 and use that as my amp, cheaper than a comparable bass rig (not what you personally require, comparable on technical specs), I can't see a reason why anyone would buy a big rig these days. 

Edited April 23, 2018 by stingrayPete1977

[stingrayPete1977]

57 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I'm really glad you shared that. 

It does prompt the question 'why', if you so strongly believe that FRFR is the better route? 

If it's just 'cos it's more convenient to use the combo or your bigger bass amp has more heft and there ain't actually too much difference to the bass sound in the mix, well fair do's. But that does say quite a bit, Pete. In particular that FRFR is just one option and not the option; a point a few of us have been 'bravely' venturing to make on this FRFR fan-club thread!

Yes but I do have the FRFR as my FOH mix that the audience hear because my monitor amp is turned down as low as possible, I only ever use the bigger cab for larger gigs where the 735s are at their limit, those would be gigs where with your vocal pa and amp setup would have involved hiring in more kit. 

[EBS_freak]

27 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

+1 I have to agree with the spill into the mics point. I thought it was only me, but obviously not! 

I found that simply by moving my combo forward, together with a little reduction in bass EQ has sorted the boominess we were getting without any recourse to HPF. I assume this is the 'spill into the mics you are referring to'? 

Need to balance that with the drummer worrying he might not hear the bass, which he mentioned for the first the first time at a gig on Saturday, but we can maybe address that with a better monitor (currently using a small 150W 5" for the vocals). 

Remove the spill completely (apart from drums unless you go electric on that front) and take the leap into the world of in ears! Stereo, processed loveliness in your ears, no ringing post gig either.

I play with a percussionist sometimes - being able to hear a shaker in your inears is beautiful. There's no way I'd hear that over all the noise that the drummer is spewing out (remembering theres no amps on stage too!)

Stick your drummer on IEMs - he'll be able to hear what he wants then. And even better, if he plays too loud, keep pushing the volume of the kit up in his ears and then he will be a bit more reluctant to hit them as hard. Are you seeing the benefits yet?!

[dannybuoy]

41 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

+1 I have to agree with the spill into the mics point. I thought it was only me, but obviously not! 

I found that simply by moving my combo forward, together with a little reduction in bass EQ has sorted the boominess we were getting without any recourse to HPF. I assume this is the 'spill into the mics you are referring to'? 

Need to balance that with the drummer worrying he might not hear the bass, which he mentioned for the first the first time at a gig on Saturday, but we can maybe address that with a better monitor (currently using a small 150W 5" for the vocals). 

Might be more to do with the boundary effect, i.e. less bass output as a result of being further away from the back wall, rather then anything to do with the mics. Easy to test by turning the mics or PA off though!

[LukeFRC]

8 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

RCF über alles - no, not at all. I will reiterate, it's just those particular models and components that are in them. I'm actually a L-Acoustics, D&B and Danley nut... but realise they are perhaps another tier above the average PA speaker. I spend a lot of time looking and trying stuff out and these (73/45s) are unique among the competition for the reasons I've mentioned above a couple of times. The QSC and Yamaha stuff (and I guess JBL, EV and all the other likely candidates at that price point) is certainly of comparable quality but not performance - and if you ask and 735 or 745 user on here, they will all tell you the same, they never struggle for headroom or getting vocals heard. First hand experience with other cabs has shown me that not to be the case with other manufacturers examples in that price range. If any other brand put the same quality of components in any model of their cabs, I would be singing the same praises. I've shared a few conversations with @stevie about these specific cabs - we aren't quite sure how they are managing to manufacturer and sell them for the price that they are. They certainly don't appear to be making much profit from them per unit - or at least, we can't really figure out how they are doing it if they are.

OK to clarify the subwoofer situation - the 735 or 745 will allow you to push out some serious bass without subwoofers. You wouldn't use small subs, so don't use small tops when you are expecting them to shift a lot of hard hitting bass. When I mean serious bass, I mean gig volumes of bass and kick drum. The 310s will definitely not do that... or at anywhere near he same volume. My experience with the 745s is that you can actually sack off all the backline, run IEMs and let the FOH speakers do the amplification for the whole band. This means less bleed on stage and better dispersion for say, guitar, where guitar amps are typically very unidirectional. If you are a member of the audience standing in front of a guitar amp, you are likely to be blasted. Two steps to the right or left and the guitar amp may be unbalanced with the rest of the band. By putting the whole band out of the FOH, you don't get any of these problems. My pitch for the 735 or 745 is that it can form half of a formidable PA but if you need a combo, it will more than happily do the job of a traditional rig also. I think there's a dual conversation happening in this thread which is muddying the water a little for some.

EBS haven't done anything for a while... certainly nothing that makes me sit up and take notice! Still love their amps though - the HD350 is still my fave bass amp of all time and I'll still take it out on a whim from time to time (usually a dep where they aren't geared up with a beefy PA and IEMs)... although my personal main rig is now a Kemper (no speakers) and inears going into a beefy PA? Why, because it sounds better on stage (my IEM mix is coming from a dedicated mixing desk with full stereo, compression fx etc)... and sounds clearer out front (nothing to bleed apart from the drums into the vocal mics). Who wouldn't want to change?

But....Have you got an ebs modelled on the kemper?

[EBS_freak]

41 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

But....Have you got an ebs modelled on the kemper?

I have. HD350!

Although I do tend to use a couple of profiles that I made at a very tasty recording studio using Neve, SSL and Chandler channels strips.

[LukeFRC]

20 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

I have. HD350!

Although I do tend to use a couple of profiles that I made at a very tasty recording studio using Neve, SSL and Chandler channels strips.

 

be interesting to a b it against the hd350 model on the zoom b3n and see how far behind the zoom models are. 

[EBS_freak]

I never knew people bothered modelleling EBS amps - I didn't think they were considered mainstream enough!

[LukeFRC]

14 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

I never knew people bothered modelleling EBS amps - I didn't think they were considered mainstream enough!

Zoom have, it sounds like I remember EBS stuff sounding when I tried it in a shop once!