Interesting FRFR story..

[EBS_freak]

1 minute ago, LukeFRC said:

Zoom have, it sounds like I remember EBS stuff sounding when I tried it in a shop once! 

It will be interesting to hear - as alot of the "famous" EBS sound comes from the Proline cabs.

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 26, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[EBS_freak]

From https://www.zoom.co.jp/B3n-update-Dec2017

For users of the B3n, Zoom Guitar Lab offers monthly updates featuring new Amp+Cabinet combinations, Stompboxes, and preset patches.

Here’s a list of new patches, emulators, and effects featured in the December 2017 release:

NEW AMP + CABINET

• EBH360 - This models the sound of the EBS HD360 bass amplifier.
• EB4x10TW - This models an EBS ProLine 410 cabinet with four 10" speakers and a tweeter.

Download in the above link.

[EBS_freak]

Although I have to say, I prefer the HD350 to the HD360 - they changed something in the top end, that for me, doesn't quite work as well.

[Phil Starr]

On ‎22‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 10:13, dood said:

Good question. 12" would seem logical but I'd really want to try the 15" version. The three way model slips outside of an agreeable weight limit. The 15" 2 way version comes in at around 25Kg which is do-able for an all-in-one meaning that all of the backline can just stay at home. Also benefiting from feeding in keys (HPF'd) and vocals for a bit of spread at the back of the stage. I would dearly love a pair of Barefaced FR800's, they'd be amazing and would replace my BBII's. The Yamaha does have a pair of inputs and the onboard DSP, accessible from the back panel could possibly be a big thumbs up. Oh and the angled cabinet for monitor use is a plus.. yes I do have a stand here for angling cabinets upwards, but I have so many silly fiddly things to deal with on stage already it's wasting time and patience. Yup, for some gigs, I wanna turn up with my Helix, Monitor(s) and a box of leads.. or less ha ha! 

There is nothing different in many ways between a PA bass driver and the driver in a dedicated bass cab, they are governed by the same laws of physics. In a sense they both have to do the same job, reproduce the sound of the deepest instruments in the band, usually the bass. At the moment technology has reached the stage where a single 12 can produce enough power to enable the bass to match an unamplified drum kit, two can do this fairly easily. A 15" speaker with it's extra surface area will be slightly more efficient all other things being equal and will need slightly less excursion to achieve the same sound level. In practice all things are rarely equal and it's the implementation of the design that makes one speaker 'better' than another. 

The thing is to use your judgement, have a listen to the speakers just as you would audition a dedicated bass cab. if they were perfect all FRFR speakers would sound identical and clearly they don't. If you regularly struggle with a single 12" bass cab then you are going to struggle with a single 12" PA cab, and in all probability your band are too loud on stage.

I've given a thorough audition to those RCF's and at the moment they beat the Yamahas hands down on the midrange transparency at least to my ears, but the proof of he speaker is in the listening.

[LukeFRC]

7 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Although I have to say, I prefer the HD350 to the HD360 - they changed something in the top end, that for me, doesn't quite work as well.

I would be impressed if that kinda detail carried through to a sim on a £130 pedal - but it wouldn't surprise me if it did

7 hours ago, Jus Lukin said:

It's the first I've heard of it, and that's being interested enough in the pedal to have the effects list downloaded on my computer! Where did you get the simulation, and do you know where I can see anything else which might be undocumented? There are some things I'd miss from the MS-60B; if they have an EBS sim, perhaps I could still get hold of the B15 and Super Bass for the B3n!

I think the ebs, acoustic and markbass amps are all added after release - easy to install. 

Markbass through a 2x8 is a bit of an odd rig to model and I'm not quite sure what circumstances anyone would go "ooh you know what rig sound I want - a markbass through a tiny cab" but hey ho. 

The only thing it is missing for me is a B15 

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 26, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[LukeFRC]

On the trace amp - no idea, it is a bit odd - I'll have a listen ant try and work it out

[LukeFRC]

19 hours ago, Jus Lukin said:

Good to know (and thanks to EBS_freak too).

The Acoustic and MB are on the effects list, but the EBS obviously has yet to be added.

The omission of a B15 is clearly bizarre, although I realise that the Super Bass is a bit of a niche thing. I actually own an old fashioned 4x12 with bass drivers in it, so that's a tonal avenue which I've put no small effort into, and was pleasantly surprised to find included in the MS-60b update!

The Markbass 2x8 is an odd choice, especially given that they previously had the 1x12 which is currently used quite widely, and definitely captured the vibe well compared to the ones I had. That said, at least they have captured something closer to the actual controls on the Micromark (VPF and VLE) rather than the three band with semi-parametric version of the LMII, with no VLE. In that vein, having a Trace Ellliot GP12 SMX with so many features missing or very vaguely implemented is a little odd. Without the 12-band EQ, dual band comp, and SS/Valve Blend it can only be so close, and, having included the 2 'shapes', what's that Pick/Slap/Finger thing? Graphic presets? A 0/50/100% valve blend? Why not just call it that?

Anyway, I'm heading off topic, although it does highlight one use of FRFR. If one's using an amp sim, one doesn't want a second amp getting in the way of hearing it! There you go. Not such a pointless ramble after all! 

I *think* it sounds like it's modelling 3 different settings on a 12 band EQ - I don't think there's any additional compression changes going on modelling that part of the head but could be wrong.

the preshape settings suck as much as they do on the real thing too  

[LukeFRC]

On 24/04/2018 at 13:07, Jus Lukin said:

It's the first I've heard of it, and that's being interested enough in the pedal to have the effects list downloaded on my computer! Where did you get the simulation, and do you know where I can see anything else which might be undocumented? There are some things I'd miss from the MS-60B; if they have an EBS sim, perhaps I could still get hold of the B15 and Super Bass for the B3n!

There's now a B15 on the B3n

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 26, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[jrixn1]

I've been using an RCF HD 10A (the "traditional rig" equivalent would be perhaps a 450W 1x10" combo with a tweeter) for the last few months mainly as a monitor - but I doubled up and used two of them as backline last night while depping with a louder band than my usual one, with minimal PA support.

During sound-check, I compared the difference between using one and two.  I think I could have just about got away with using one at high volume - but two of them definitely gave a richer tone.  The volume on each was set around 35-40% - so I could have gone louder had I needed to.  In fact the keyboard player asked me to turn down.

I was using a five-string - the tastefully-occasional low notes were deep and full, but with clarity, producing large grins each time on the drummer and guitarist - they were loving it - so there was no problem there.  I know it's only one note lower, but there really is a big difference between a normal low E and a low D!  Incidentally, my HPF is 24db/octave at 40Hz - paging @Al Krow

Loading is a delight as each is only 12kg and 12" wide, so fit easily through doorways, narrow staircases, and squeezing past the waiting staff while you're hauling gear to the ballroom via the hotel kitchen

The speakers have live-in soft covers (with flaps in all the right places) which also adds a small amount of convenience.

I'm aware there's probably a psychological effect to being happy with gear one has recently spent money on - but really, I am very happy with these.

[Al Krow]

@jrixn1 - hey that's really interesting, particularly as we're using 2 x RCF 310A Mk3 for our PA (vocals, sax, acoustic guitar). Bass and guitar - separate backline amps.

Some Qs from me if I may:

1. Do you know if the RCF HD 10A you referred to a different (better?) model to the 310A or one and the same?

2. What do you normally use as your PA speakers for your band? I've been strongly recommended (on this thread) to get nothing smaller than the RCF 735A if I want to have a PA that can handle bass, and I did the sums (again see earlier in the thread) and there was no weight so saving for me at all going down this route if it meant replacing our existing RCF 310As.

3. What is your HCF? It sounds good!

 

Edited May 20, 2018 by Al Krow

[jrixn1]

@Al Krow, mine is an HD 10-A mk4.  I'm not really sure what exactly is the difference between the HD 10-A mk4, the ART 310-A mk3, or indeed the ART 310-A mk4.  The specs, price, and marketing all seem very similar.  From what I can tell, the differences are the voice coil and crossover frequency - not sure what the consequences to the end user would be.  Oh, and the HD 10-A has side handles

The band I was depping with last night were using two Mackie 450s.  I'm not sure how much bass guitar was put through those in the end.  Venue was a hotel ballroom holding maybe 200 people.

My regular band have two QSC KSubs and two K8s, which seem to handle up to the larger ballrooms; for anything bigger, a sound company will normally take care of things.

The HPF is two Ac Bs Pre on the Zoom MS-60B.

 

[Al Krow]

23 hours ago, jrixn1 said:

The HPF is two Ac Bs Pre on the Zoom MS-60B.

+1 ^^ (same for me)

My use of the MS-60B has been transformed by the recently available free ToneLib editor - and it's a ridiculously good 'value for money' swiss army knife of a pedal!

I see you have the AcBsPre set at 9 (= 40Hz). I've got mine set at 7 (= 70Hz) to give it more of a 'runway' (probably 'cos I'm skeptical that it is actually delivering -12db/octave per AcBsPre!) to cut some of the very low end and I've included one AcBsPre plus a Noise Gate effect pretty much in every effect patch I have set up on the MS-60B.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Al Krow

[Dood]

Did anyone actually run RTA on the MS to see those HPF curves? (I could have but I don't have an MS anymore lol)

[Al Krow]

11 minutes ago, dood said:

Did anyone actually run RTA on the MS to see those HPF curves? (I could have but I don't have an MS anymore lol)

 @bartelby did a fair few for us on the HPF thread but I think he's got a Zoom B3 rather than the MS-60B.

[RichardH]

For those tempted to go in this direction, Electromarket have a 10% off voucher (REWARD10) running at the moment - they stock a lot of RCF stuff.... No affiliation, just passing on the info!

[Dood]

Having just sold my passive FRFR cabinets, I am hoping to soon join the powered FRFR collective! Exciting times ahead I am sure.

[stingrayPete1977]

What you gone for? 

[Dood]

2 hours ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

What you gone for?  

Well, the Barefaced FR800 would be the natural choice, I did end up having a couple of questions about that particular model. I don't think they have neutrik combo input sockets for XLR or 1/4" leads. I'm also preferring a gain control on the panel too, should I wish to daisy chain cabinets or in cases where level adjustment on another device isn't easy. Everything else the FR800 is suggested to deal up in spades and as I am familiar with the Big Twin II and the Big Baby II cabinets, I know what I should expect from them.

Edited June 14, 2018 by dood

[Jack]

38 minutes ago, dood said:

Well, the Barefaced FR800 would be the natural choice, I did end up having a couple of questions about that particular model. I don't think they have neutrik combo input sockets for XLR or 1/4" leads. I'm also preferring a gain control on the panel too, should I wish to daisy chain cabinets or in cases where level adjustment on another device isn't easy. Everything else the FR800 is suggested to deal up in spades and as I am familiar with the Big Twin II and the Big Baby II cabinets, I know what I should expect from them.

The lack of a gain control is a massive downside. Obviously you can use the preamp for small/medium adjustments but I have to set it at +15dB for live use, which means that there's far too much hiss to use anywhere NOT at a gig. And to go down to say +0dB you have to use a laptop. Only major criticism from me.

[Dood]

56 minutes ago, Jack said:

The lack of a gain control is a massive downside. Obviously you can use the preamp for small/medium adjustments but I have to set it at +15dB for live use, which means that there's far too much hiss to use anywhere NOT at a gig. And to go down to say +0dB you have to use a laptop. Only major criticism from me.

I appreciate your insight on the subject. I'd not thought about that if I am honest and that is something that will mess with my tiny mind quite a bit. Tonally, it's not as if I could just use the volume control on my bass via some pedals either as I use that as more of a saturation control when I am using drive pedals in to amps sims. This is something to think about.

 

[CameronJ]

Seems like madness that there’s no gain control or XLR in...especially when they’re aimed to compete in a PA market wherein comparable products feature both of the above 

[Jack]

33 minutes ago, dood said:

I appreciate your insight on the subject. I'd not thought about that if I am honest and that is something that will mess with my tiny mind quite a bit. Tonally, it's not as if I could just use the volume control on my bass via some pedals either as I use that as more of a saturation control when I am using drive pedals in to amps sims. This is something to think about.

 

As I've typed that, it's hot me that there might be a way to do it using the 4 presets. If I remember rightly, the volume is 'master' and doesn't change with the presets but I wonder if there's a way to do it with the EQ filters. I could quite happily live with a 0 and a 15dB preset, that would cover it all for me as I can adjust more than +/-15dB with my preamps.

2 minutes ago, CameronJ said:

Seems like madness that there’s no gain control or XLR in...especially when they’re aimed to compete in a PA market wherein comparable products feature both of the above 

Uh-huh. Had I really thought about it beforehand I'm not sure I would have gone the same way. It doesn't detract from an amazing cabinet: great sound, light, small, easy to carry, stackable, looks like a bass cab (AFAIK the only cab to do the last two). But then, there are loads of small, light, great sounding frfr cabs out there that do have bloody gain controls. It's not Barefaced's fault per se, the amp is off-the-shelf from Hypex. But, they did chose what amp to put in there.