Interesting FRFR story..

[EBS_freak]

13 hours ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

Once we get these in ears fired up after Xmas my only FOH sound will be from the RCF 735s and hopefully the guitarist will be ampless too, that should kill rock and roll off forever! 

Have you planted the Helix Stomp seed yet?

I love how you have named your P2s too. I'm going to call mine Stan.

[stingrayPete1977]

Yep, planted, watered, shoots starting to come up. He's hanging out with Rod Stewart in LA at the moment though, lol. 

[stingrayPete1977]

Flight cased in ears porn. 

[EBS_freak]

32 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

Yep, planted, watered, shoots starting to come up. He's hanging out with Rod Stewart in LA at the moment though, lol. 

He told me... and DB - but I think that could be a completely different story... :-o

[stingrayPete1977]

Yes I'll ask him about that when he gets back! 

[LukeFRC]

So I was looking at this thread... 

 

Which is really interesting thread where a load of our more engineering experts, semi led by @stevie are designing and building a bass cab - it's all quite good stuff... anyway the discussion is about how the hf driver they are using is fairly high end and retails at £80 or so, lots of discussion on high end drivers, the one on the Barefaced stuff and so on. I look up the one on the RCF Art 745 that's been mentioned as a very top end FRFR solution.... apparently that compression driver retails at £200+ ...

So I keep looking at the specs - that speaker puts 500w RMS to the low end and 200w to the high end, with all the cleverness of the DSP and claims max SPL of 133db (ie loud). Costs a fair bit at £1200.
But then compare that to bass gear - and the Barefaced FR800 goes a tiny bit lower, costs the same and claims a max continuous SPL of 127dB (which is different to peak SPL so wouldn't know how to compare) The Big Twin claims continuous SPL of 133dB and costs the similar £1200 - and you would still need to get an amp. 

Now given that the figures don't seem to be directly comparable, and I've used Barefaced as an example as the top of the market in terms of custom, well engineered bass guitar specific stuff that I would happily own and gig.... but it seems to me that going FRFR isn't even a particularly  expensive option. And thats comparing to the big old top end RCF speakers folk have been talking about. 

It was the comparative retail price of the compression driver that made me think, that providing the PA speaker can handle Bass guitar type signals, that  FRFR is possibly not the most stupid move. I'm tempted. (but I also don't need to change and my walkabout does me fine, though how much are they fetching secondhand these days? ) 

 

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited March 2, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[stingrayPete1977]

12 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

So I was looking at this thread... 

 

Which is really interesting thread where a load of our more engineering experts, semi led by @stevie are designing and building a bass cab - it's all quite good stuff... anyway the discussion is about how the hf driver they are using is fairly high end and retails at £80 or so, lots of discussion on high end drivers, the one on the Barefaced stuff and so on. I look up the one on the RCF Art 745 that's been mentioned as a very top end FRFR solution.... apparently that compression driver retails at £200+ ...

So I keep looking at the specs - that speaker puts 500w RMS to the low end and 200w to the high end, with all the cleverness of the DSP and claims max SPL of 133db (ie loud). Costs a fair bit at £1200.
But then compare that to bass gear - and the Barefaced FR800 goes a tiny bit lower, costs the same and claims a max continuous SPL of 127dB (which is different to peak SPL so wouldn't know how to compare) The Big Twin claims continuous SPL of 133dB and costs the similar £1200 - and you would still need to get an amp. 

Now given that the figures don't seem to be directly comparable, and I've used Barefaced as an example as the top of the market in terms of custom, well engineered bass guitar specific stuff that I would happily own and gig.... but it seems to me that going FRFR isn't even a particularly  expensive option. And thats comparing to the big old top end RCF speakers folk have been talking about. 

It was the comparative retail price of the compression driver that made me think, that providing the PA speaker can handle Bass guitar type signals, that  FRFR is possibly not the most stupid move. I'm tempted. (but I also don't need to change and my walkabout does me fine, though how much are they fetching secondhand these days? ) 

 

Another one has seen the light, lol. 

[Chienmortbb]

It is not stupid but not all powered PA cabs are created equal. Many have appalling cabinet resonances and suffer badly from the sort of marketing hype  (in terms or power specs) that Behringer are often slated for. The fact is that it costs a lot to get a really good FRFR  system and even the one that Stevie has been working on is expensive in terms of labour (if you had to pay yourself). Also the recommended driver (because of its weight) i has changed to a new Faital Pro Neo PR320 is approx £130 currently.

[stevie]

I'm in two minds about this FRFR thing. The upside is that the systems are relatively uncoloured, which in my opinion is what you want from a bass guitar cab. Plenty of people disagree with that, but if I want colour I can always add it. If it's in the cab it's there all the time. The acoustic design of these boxes is also about 20/30 years ahead of what you get in a bass guitar cab.

The other great thing about all of these active PA cabs is that you get such a lot for your money. Their pricing puts them in the same area of the market as boutiqe bass guitar cabs, but because they are mass market products (unlike boutique bass cabs), they offer you a much bigger bang for your buck.

The other side of the coin is that they are jack-of-all-trades speakers. Although a lot of them handle bass, the cheaper ones are very limited, and even the expensive ones I've looked at aren't wonderful. For example, the RCF 745, which is considered by many (including me) to be a superb cab, comes in a plastic box. There is a video on YouTube in which a music dealer takes one apart and examines the components and build quality. He bangs on the plastic box and convinces himself how solid it is, but is sounds like a plastic bucket to me. And while the compression driver and horn are impeccable , the 15" driver has a pressed steel chassis, and if you look at RCF's driver specs, an xmax of less than 3mm. Finally (although I could go on), there is too much wall area in the porting arrangement and with bass guitar those ports will start compressing well before the system gets anywhere close to its limits.

Just a few thoughts.....

Edited December 10, 2018 by stevie

[CameronJ]

2 hours ago, stevie said:

Finally (although I could go on)...

I’m intrigued now. If you can be arsed and have the time, I’d certainly be willing to read your further thoughts!

[Chienmortbb]

1 hour ago, stevie said:

I'm in two minds about this FRFR thing. The upside is that the systems are relatively uncoloured, which in my opinion is what you want from a bass guitar cab. Plenty of people disagree with that, but if I want colour I can always add it. If it's in the cab it's there all the time. The acoustic design of these boxes is also about 20/30 years ahead of what you get in a bass guitar cab.

The other great thing about all of these active PA cabs is that you get such a lot for your money. Their pricing puts them in the same area of the market as boutiqe bass guitar cabs, but because they are mass market products (unlike boutique bass cabs), they offer you a much bigger bang for your buck.

The other side of the coin is that they are jack-of-all-trades speakers. Although a lot of them handle bass, the cheaper ones are very limited, and even the expensive ones I've looked at aren't wonderful. For example, the RCF 745, which is considered by many (including me) to be a superb cab, comes in a plastic box. There is a video on YouTube in which a music dealer takes one apart and examines the components and build quality. He bangs on the plastic box and convinces himself how solid it is, but is sounds like a plastic bucket to me. And while the compression driver and horn are impeccable , the 15" driver has a pressed steel chassis, and if you look at RCF's driver specs, an xmax of less than 3mm. Finally (although I could go on), there is too much wall area in the porting arrangement and with bass guitar those ports will start compressing well before the system gets anywhere close to its limits.

Just a few thoughts.....

One of the things we did was spend hours and hours bracing the cabinet so as to remove resonances. Resonances colour the sound and waste energy. The only composite cabinets I have seen that are anywher neare a` properly damped wood cab are the old Ramsa WS-A200/500 series ( the ones the elephant stood on in the adverts if anyone remembers).  However they are not light.

[stevie]

1 hour ago, CameronJ said:

I’m intrigued now. If you can be arsed and have the time, I’d certainly be willing to read your further thoughts!

I think I pointed out the main weaknesses of the RCF 745 as I see them, Cameron, but  I don't want to run it down. While it's not perfect, it's a great product and excellent value overall.

[Jack]

21 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

@stevie are designing and building a bass cab - it's all quite good stuff... anyway the discussion is about how the hf driver they are using is fairly high end and retails at £80 or so, lots of discussion on high end drivers, the one on the Barefaced stuff and so on. I look up the one on the RCF Art 745 that's been mentioned as a very top end FRFR solution.... apparently that compression driver retails at £200+ ...

So I keep looking at the specs - that speaker puts 500w RMS to the low end and 200w to the high end, with all the cleverness of the DSP and claims max SPL of 133db (ie loud). Costs a fair bit at £1200.
But then compare that to bass gear - and the Barefaced FR800 goes a tiny bit lower, costs the same and claims a max continuous SPL of 127dB (which is different to peak SPL so wouldn't know how to compare) The Big Twin claims continuous SPL of 133dB and costs the similar £1200 - and you would still need to get an amp. 

Now given that the figures don't seem to be directly comparable, and I've used Barefaced as an example as the top of the market in terms of custom, well engineered bass guitar specific stuff that I would happily own and gig.... but it seems to me that going FRFR isn't even a particularly  expensive option. And thats comparing to the big old top end RCF speakers folk have been talking about.

I think as PA systems at all levels get better by the moment, MOST solutions for bass are loud enough for MOST bands these days. Half the posts in any amp thread these days are people gigging with a 300-500W head and a small cab like a 1x12". Big rigs are still incomparably cool but they're not necessary for a most any more. On that basis I think it's fair to say (regardless of whether the RCF or Barefaced is louder) it really doesn't matter, they're both incredibly loud.  

 

I think you're spot on with the costs too. A lot of people tell me that I'm mental for spending £1300 on a Helix. Fair enough, but that's pretty much what an SVT head costs these days. They can also balk at the £1100 or so for the FR800, but that's what the heritage 8x10" costs too. Both sound great and both are loud enough. Versatility, size and weight go the Helix/FR800. Absolute volume, coolness, and a slightly better price go to the Ampeg. Whether you're an FRFR convert or not it's hard to make the cost argument for either side.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Jack

[LukeFRC]

1 hour ago, stevie said:

I think I pointed out the main weaknesses of the RCF 745 as I see them, Cameron, but  I don't want to run it down. While it's not perfect, it's a great product and excellent value overall.

So if you had to get a powered speaker for bass guitar (and we ignore the super super high end PA stuff) would you get the RCF745 which is a pretty good mid range PA speaker, or the bare face FR800 which is designed as a bass cab tweaked as a PA option? 

 

Note your own designed cab cab isn’t an option at this point! 

[stevie]

Well the Barefaced does have the advantage that it has been designed specifically for bass, but if I were buying a powered cab for bass and could afford that kind of money, I wouldn't think twice: I'd go for the RCF.

What about you?

[BigRedX]

I've said this before, but I think it bears repeating.

I paid just over £2k for my Helix and RCF745. My previous big bass rig which was mostly bought second hand over 10 years ago cost me more, and while it looks impressive on stage the Helix RCF combination is far more versatile.

One thing did occur to me recently; a lot of the gigs I play are supports to well-established goth/post punk bands where the headliner will have brought an Ampeg stack or similar. I set up my RCF in wedge mode just in front, and still looks as though I'm using a big impressive bass rig while sounding infinitely better!

[stingrayPete1977]

That's the perfect Ampeg, one I can't hear and one I haven't had to schlep! 

[Frank Blank]

The moment of truth is almost here, asked my local PMT to  get a QSC K12.2 and a K10.2 in so I can try them out along with several RCF speakers that they already have in stock. So, on Friday, I’ll be taking the Rob Allen Mouse along with a Fishman Platinum pre amp and seeing if I too can kill RnR. I shall post my findings here.

[CameronJ]

2 hours ago, Frank Blank said:

The moment of truth is almost here, asked my local PMT to  get a QSC K12.2 and a K10.2 in so I can try them out along with several RCF speakers that they already have in stock. So, on Friday, I’ll be taking the Rob Allen Mouse along with a Fishman Platinum pre amp and seeing if I too can kill RnR. I shall post my findings here.

Looking forward to it! Also, just realised I’m in your neck of the woods for the next few weeks - I’m doing Aladdin at the Cliffs Pavilion until early Jan! Didn’t realise there was a PMT here. Now I know what to do on my day off 😬

[Frank Blank]

Just now, CameronJ said:

Looking forward to it! Also, just realised I’m in your neck of the woods for the next few weeks - I’m doing Aladdin at the Cliffs Pavilion until early Jan! Didn’t realise there was a PMT here. Now I know what to do on my day off 😬

It’s only a couple of streets away from The Cliffs, good staff in the Southend branch too.

[CameronJ]

2 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

It’s only a couple of streets away from The Cliffs, good staff in the Southend branch too.

This could get expensive...

[LukeFRC]

12 minutes ago, CameronJ said:

This could get expensive...

Just go and listen in my n @Frank Blank s test on Friday 

[Gottastopbuyinggear]

1 hour ago, CameronJ said:

Looking forward to it! Also, just realised I’m in your neck of the woods for the next few weeks - I’m doing Aladdin at the Cliffs Pavilion until early Jan! Didn’t realise there was a PMT here. Now I know what to do on my day off 😬

Didn’t PMT start in Southend?

Sorry, not really on topic 😁

[Frank Blank]

Oh dear...

Went in to PMT Southend, paid for three hours parking and wandered into the shop expecting a lengthy, soul searching wrangle with the issue of going over to the RnR killing dark side that is an FRFR setup. The excellent staff there set up a QSC K12.2, set it to the bass amp preset, I plugged my bass into my Fishman Platinum, set everything at 12 O/C so I had the flattest sound possible and started playing. It took twelve minutes to see the light fully and six of those were just waiting for the assistant to return.

So I am putting two basses and my AER Basic Performer up for sale and as soon as I've shifted the AER this will be my new setup...

...I didn't have to discuss anything with the shop assistant, I was fully prepared and armed with all the possible info, how simple it actually is to make the right decision when you have a huge 38 page thread like this that does all the arguing and comparison for you, all one has to do is go in, try it out and confirm it. This is exactly what makes Basschat a massively useful and important resource for its members.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Frank Blank
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