Interesting FRFR story..

[Guest bassman7755]

On 10/12/2018 at 20:48, stevie said:

Well the Barefaced does have the advantage that it has been designed specifically for bass, but if I were buying a powered cab for bass and could afford that kind of money, I wouldn't think twice: I'd go for the RCF.

What about you?

Id go for the barefaced but mainly because its lighter, if the RCF was say 15KG that might swing for the RCF, then again if the FR800 was reshaped to allow a tiltback/monitor positioning ... 

To be honest I would have hoped that BF would have been ahead of the curve on this move to self powered FRFR, I mean the FR800 was in hind sight ahead of its time but there doesn't seem to have any more models added with the same design paradigm. I remember suggesting to alex that a tilltable self powered super midget would be a killer form factor.

[Frank Blank]

21 minutes ago, bassman7755 said:

I remember suggesting to alex that a tilltable self powered super midget would be a killer form factor.

I spent a while looking at the Godin Acoustic Solution amps mainly because they were suitable for the kind of instruments I play but a huge part of wanting one was simply because they have the angled section allowing it to tilt like a monitor.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Frank Blank
Defenestration

[EBS_freak]

27 minutes ago, bassman7755 said:

I mean the FR800 was in hind sight ahead of its time?

How?

[Jack]

51 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

How?

I'm not the OP, so maybe they have other ideas. There are now several products on the market that bridge the gap between instrument (electric guitar, usually) cab and PA speaker such as the Line 6, Matrix and Laney offerings and it predates the Line 6 Powercab by, what, 3 years or so? AFAIK the FR800 was pretty much the first of these that was marketed by a bass amp company mainly towards bass players, for all I know it's still the only one actually.

[EBS_freak]

9 minutes ago, Jack said:

I'm not the OP, so maybe they have other ideas. There are now several products on the market that bridge the gap between instrument (electric guitar, usually) cab and PA speaker such as the Line 6, Matrix and Laney offerings and it predates the Line 6 Powercab by, what, 3 years or so? AFAIK the FR800 was pretty much the first of these that was marketed by a bass amp company mainly towards bass players, for all I know it's still the only one actually.

Berg IP- although it's now discontinued. Before it's time maybe?

[Jack]

4 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Berg IP- although it's now discontinued. Before it's time maybe?

Oooh, definitely. I forgot about those. I remember lusting after those on TB back in the day when Tombowlus was touting them as the next big thing. Funnily enough, a 310 came up on ebay not that long ago for stupidly cheap. I almost went for it until I realised that, after 10 years or so of progress, the current crop of what are now called FRFR cabs are probably better in every way.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Jack

[Bridgehouse]

14 minutes ago, Jack said:

I'm not the OP, so maybe they have other ideas. There are now several products on the market that bridge the gap between instrument (electric guitar, usually) cab and PA speaker such as the Line 6, Matrix and Laney offerings and it predates the Line 6 Powercab by, what, 3 years or so? AFAIK the FR800 was pretty much the first of these that was marketed by a bass amp company mainly towards bass players, for all I know it's still the only one actually.

Actually IIRC Barefaced primarily made the FR800 as a PA speaker - so no different to anyone else

[EBS_freak]

3 minutes ago, Bridgehouse said:

Actually IIRC Barefaced primarily made the FR800 as a PA speaker - so no different to anyone else

From their site -

 The all-new FR800 represents the logical conclusion of that concept - a true full-range active PA loudspeaker.

Think that sums up what it is.

[lemmywinks]

1 hour ago, Frank Blank said:

I spent a while looking at the Godin Acoustic Solution amps mainly because they were suitable for the kind of instruments I play but a huge part of wanting one was simply because they have the angled section allowing it to tilt like a monitor.

I don't know why amp manufacturers don't include a wedge option in every amp/cab design. The Markbass Club series cabs I owned did this and it's primarily why I bought them, the little EA cab I use also has a handle on the base which can be used to tilt it up. A (removable?) ridge along the back to secure an amp head would also be nice!

[EBS_freak]

7 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

I don't know why amp manufacturers don't include a wedge option in every amp/cab design.

Because they don't do that on tours. If you want a monitor wedge, use a monitor wedge.

[Jack]

15 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Because they don't do that on tours. If you want a monitor wedge, use a monitor wedge.

I get that, but I would hazard a guess that over 90% of musicians never tour. I understand the need for manufacturers to have halo products made for touring (even signature stuff for endorsing artists) that get us all excited, but realistically the gear that a lot of us lust after and the gear that best suits our needs isn't always the same. I understand why not ALL gear can be tilted, but I bet a lot of people would benefit from a kickback amp, particularly as 'amateur' live music venues get rarer and stages get smaller. I'm amazed there aren't more designs like that. Companies put a lot of time and effort into market research, and I'm sure they'd provide them if there was a market, so maybe there isn't a market. But I'm surprised there isn't...

Edited January 4, 2019 by Jack

[lemmywinks]

20 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Because they don't do that on tours. If you want a monitor wedge, use a monitor wedge.

And the majority of consumers won't be touring musicians with provided wedges, hence why amp stands sell pretty well. We get threads on here where people are wondering why they can't hear themselves on stage when they're stood 2ft in front of their amp.

Edited January 4, 2019 by lemmywinks

[EBS_freak]

3 minutes ago, Jack said:

I get that, but I would hazard a guess that over 90% of musicians never tour. I understand the need for manufacturers to have halo products made for touring (even signature stuff for endorsing artists) that get us all excited, but realistically the gear that a lot of us lust after and the gear that best suits our needs isn't always the same. I understand why not ALL gear can be tilted, but I bet a lot of people would benefit from a kickback amp, particularly as 'amateur' live music venues get rarer and stages get smaller. I'm amazed there aren't more designs like that. Companies put a lot of time and effort into market research, and I'm sure they'd provide them if there was a market, so maybe there isn't a market. But I'm surprised there isn't...

I think it's because we look at the equipment through UK centric eyes. A lot of gear gets sold in mainland Europe and the States, where the gigging scene is a lot, lot different to over in the UK. I'm guessing that small and light and things like kick back amps are a lot less important when you take the global customer base into account.

I remember talking to EBS about the need for a a small lightweight class D head. They looked into it and at the time, they deemed it wasn't necessary because the majority of the cabs and amp sales were the big units (410s, 610s, 212, 810)... I think at the time, their best selling amp was the Classic 450 - which did pretty much nothing over here - same as the T90... but abroad, it sold well. They said to me it made no financial sense to go to a small lightweight solution as their sales (I dont know about now) were still growing with the larger gear.

Even though there is now a small (ish) EBS class D amp, I still think that was released based on profit margin than anything else. They've killed off pretty much all of their amps - TD660 and Fafner... and all of their cabs are made from a lot cheaper components than when they originally came out. I still believe their bigger cabs are selling better than the small stuff they do.

[EBS_freak]

6 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

And the majority of consumers won't be touring musicians with provided wedges, hence why amp stands sell pretty well. We get threads on here where people are wondering why they can't hear themselves on stage when they're stood 2ft in front of their amp.

That's because they aren't using IEMs.

[lemmywinks]

Looks like the Markbass Marcus Miller range all have an optional wedge design, he's done the odd tour over the years!

Even the 4x10 can be angled up, I can imagine that takes up a lot of space on stage. Their standard 121HR also has this feature.

[stevie]

2 hours ago, bassman7755 said:

Id go for the barefaced but mainly because its lighter, if the RCF was say 15KG that might swing for the RCF, then again if the FR800 was reshaped to allow a tiltback/monitor positioning ...

The Barefaced is 15kg while the RCF ART 312 is 16.5kg (which was the first 12" model I came across). On the other hand, the RCF is a far more advanced design and you can buy one for £347. The Barefaced costs a tad under £1300 - more if you include the cover which you will definitely need. What makes this price comparison even more interesting is that Barefaced sell direct and are therefore trousering the retailer's margin.

So if, like Bassman7755, you are prepared to accept an inferior product and fork out nearly £1,000 to save 1.5kg in weight, then you should follow Bassman's advice and do so.

 

[EBS_freak]

1 minute ago, lemmywinks said:

Looks like the Markbass Marcus Miller range all have an optional wedge design, he's done the odd tour over the years!

Even the 4x10 can be angled up, I can imagine that takes up a lot of space on stage. Their standard 121HR also has this feature.

What happened to sticking rack case lids under cabs for a bit of "lift"? 😛

I know, I know.. who carries around rack case lids nowadays...

[EBS_freak]

2 minutes ago, stevie said:

The Barefaced is 15kg while the RCF ART 312 is 16.5kg (which was the first 12" model I came across). On the other hand, the RCF is a far more advanced design and you can buy one for £347. The Barefaced costs a tad under £1300 - more if you include the cover which you will definitely need. What makes this price comparison even more interesting is that Barefaced sell direct and are therefore trousering the retailer's margin.

So if, like Bassman7755, you are prepared to accept an inferior product and fork out nearly £1,000 to save 1.5kg in weight, then you should follow Bassman's advice and do so.

 

And also, when two of the feet fall off, you'll get tiltback monitoring anyway.

[lemmywinks]

Just now, EBS_freak said:

What happened to sticking rack case lids under cabs for a bit of "lift"? 😛

I know, I know.. who carries around rack case lids nowadays...

I've been trying to convince the rest of the band to ditch our big rack, it's essentially a Mackie DL32R in a huge case with a load of drawers for cables underneath. Made sense when we had the 16 channel Mackie as we needed the lid to come off and cables were routed to a front panel but the 32 channel version can basically slide in a normal rack unit (which we already have sat there doing nothing!) and means we would have one less 2 man lift to carry up stairs.

The guitarist put it together and is really proud of it so it looks like it's staying. 

 

[EBS_freak]

1 minute ago, lemmywinks said:

I've been trying to convince the rest of the band to ditch our big rack, it's essentially a Mackie DL32R in a huge case with a load of drawers for cables underneath. Made sense when we had the 16 channel Mackie as we needed the lid to come off and cables were routed to a front panel but the 32 channel version can basically slide in a normal rack unit (which we already have sat there doing nothing!) and means we would have one less 2 man lift to carry up stairs.

The guitarist put it together and is really proud of it so it looks like it's staying. 

 

Waste of time. Most of the time I carry around two Dante enabled Mackie DL32Rs. (one for FOH, one for Monitor world). I've got a plastic suitcase to carry cables around in... primarily because it keeps the mixing racks (I've got each DL32R in a separate case) light and portable... and the cables light and portable. Why would you want to carry around a big bulky, heavy rack?
 

I used to be a big rack nut. Not I would rather have gear that everybody can carry. Having said that, the girlie singer in my band dead lifts 50kg subs into the back of the van by herself... despite me telling her not to.

[stevie]

51 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

I don't know why amp manufacturers don't include a wedge option in every amp/cab design. The Markbass Club series cabs I owned did this and it's primarily why I bought them, the little EA cab I use also has a handle on the base which can be used to tilt it up. A (removable?) ridge along the back to secure an amp head would also be nice!

If you want a compact bass cab that you can hear clearly even when you're right in front of it - and isn't a wedge - the Basschat 12 that we're designing in another thread is the only one I know that can do this. The design is nearing completion and is open source, although you do need to assemble it yourself. It is also FRFR, and the thread contains measurements (with more to come) that prove this. These measurements are notably lacking from non-pro-PA companies.

[Al Krow]

10 minutes ago, stevie said:

... the Basschat 12 that we're designing in another thread is the only one I know that can do this. The design is nearing completion and is open source, although you do need to assemble it yourself. 

I'd have thought that there would be a good opportunity for someone proficient in making cabs to do this commercially, with benefit to both themselves and to bass players who don't have the requisite skills or inclination but would nevertheless be keen to have such a cab? 

Edited January 4, 2019 by Al Krow

[lemmywinks]

26 minutes ago, stevie said:

If you want a compact bass cab that you can hear clearly even when you're right in front of it - and isn't a wedge - the Basschat 12 that we're designing in another thread is the only one I know that can do this. The design is nearing completion and is open source, although you do need to assemble it yourself. It is also FRFR, and the thread contains measurements (with more to come) that prove this. These measurements are notably lacking from non-pro-PA companies.

I had two Markbass Club 112 cabs which had a kickback feature were great but I sold them and bought a QSC K10.2. 

[EBS_freak]

21 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I'd have thought that there would be a good opportunity for someone proficient in making cabs to do this commercially, with benefit to both themselves and to bass players who don't have the requisite skills or inclination but would nevertheless be keen to have such a cab? 

There's been many "kick back" cabs over the years... they never really gained any popularity though. Maybe that's because primarily, they were quite budget offerings and their performance not as good as it could have been.

[stevie]

25 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I'd have thought that there would be a good opportunity for someone proficient in making cabs to do this commercially, with benefit to both themselves and to bass players who don't have the requisite skills or inclination but would nevertheless be keen to have such a cab? 

Al, without wishing to derail this thread, I'd just say that I'm currently sorting out some flat pack kits that anyone who can assemble an IKEA wardrobe can make in a weekend. You do have a point that players in the UK seem to be reluctant to roll their own (unlike in the US). So I'm trying to make the whole build as easy as possible, with easy-assemble flat-packs and pre-built crossovers. In theory, all you need to build one of these is a screwdriver and some wood glue.

To make the project more attractive to potential builders, I'm also working on branding - so that the finished product will look quite swish, and not in the slightest bit home-made. All of this is a part-time effort - so progress is a bit slower than I'd like, although I am getting some great help from a few fellow Basschatters.

Off my soapbox now......