Interesting FRFR story..

[M@23]

16 hours ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

I managed to pickup a used Headrush FRFR-112 on ebay last week for a good price (£229).  Yet to play it with the band, but I'm positive it'll be fine - sounds great at home so far. One of these, or its (cheaper) sister product the Alto TS312 might be fine for you to jam with a drummer and guitarist.

Don't quote me on it, but you might be able to get away with the smaller Headrush FRFR-108 / Alto TS308. It should be loud enough but might lack depth at volume.

That's good to know. My main band has a quiet stage, if not on in ears, guitarist uses an FBT 8 with his Helix, drummer uses in ears and a TD50, I just listed my amp and am acquiring a Helix. I've been looking at cheaper monitors that might do a job when needed and for practice, and smaller gigs. Was wondering if the Headrush or Alto 312 was worth a shot.

I figure that when I use an amp, the volume is at about 9 or 10 o'clock (for what that's worth) , so I don't need huge volume anyway! 

[Greg Edwards69]

On 10/05/2019 at 09:26, M@23 said:

That's good to know. My main band has a quiet stage, if not on in ears, guitarist uses an FBT 8 with his Helix, drummer uses in ears and a TD50, I just listed my amp and am acquiring a Helix. I've been looking at cheaper monitors that might do a job when needed and for practice, and smaller gigs. Was wondering if the Headrush or Alto 312 was worth a shot.

I figure that when I use an amp, the volume is at about 9 or 10 o'clock (for what that's worth) , so I don't need huge volume anyway! 

Same here. Both of the guitarists in my band use a Helix with a Yamaha DXR10. Now I've joined the Helix party, we're looking at changing the way we run things to get everything through the FOH and IEMs as so far we generally use the FOH and IEM's for vocals and have everything else coming off the stage.

Even so, we've only used small amps and cabs. Personally, I've been using a single Markbass 1x12 with a Carvin/markbass head running at 350w @8ohms for the past 10-15 years or so. Never had to turn it up even halfway for the loudest of rock gigs, so I think the headrush will perform similarly.

Once we get everything running through the FOH, it could be I don't even need that, and IEMs will suffice, or at least the FRFR-108 for rehearsals. I'd keep the 112 regardless, just in case as I sometimes dep with other bands.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Greg Edwards69

[M@23]

Anybody got any recommendations for a 12" PA speaker to pair with a Helix as a monitor. Just for me, just for bass.

I'm looking at cheap, JBL 610, EV ZLX12, Alto TS312... I'm guessing they're all much of a muchness? 

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, M@23 said:

Anybody got any recommendations for a 12" PA speaker to pair with a Helix as a monitor. Just for me, just for bass.

I'm looking at cheap, JBL 610, EV ZLX12, Alto TS312... I'm guessing they're all much of a muchness? 

The Alto's seem to deliver a lot for the money (and had a fair bit of love from existing users on another thread - please see below), although tbf I've not tried the 12" version in comparison to the others you've listed.

 

[Dennis1971]

Watched these on youtube...

Pretty decent for what I am thinking of and I can stretch to buying the 312.

 

[Greg Edwards69]

Update. Finally had the chance to use my Headrush FRFR-112 at a band rehearsal at the weekend with the Helix LT.  Result? Very happy.

It was just a 'technical' rehearsal with three of us as one of the guitarist and both vocalists weren't available.  So just guitarist, drums and me. The drummer had a new toy he wanted to try out too (roland drum pad and sampler thing). I needed to check the headrush was going to work, so seemed like an ideal opportunity to try these things out without interference.

I've mentioned before, we're not a loud band, and I previously used a single markbass 1x12 with a Carvin head running at 300w@8ohms.  Before the Helix arrived I had issues with boom and mud I just couldn't dial out.  It was much better with the helix's hpf engaged, but now with the headrush, much better. The low end is controlled, still fat and deep enough even at high volume. I had it set a volume I felt I would normally gig at and it was fine - didn't even break a sweat. As an experiment I turned up the wick to a sort of volume I'd never play at, and where my previous rig would get 'woolly'.  Again, absolutely fine.  The natural roll-off around 50hz really helped.  In fact, I was able to turn the hpf on the Helix (which I also had set at 50hz from before) off without negatively affecting the tone.

I found I prefer the tone of the Helix amp sims without a cab sim. To my ears, they just seem to kill the tone too much and don't 'feel' right (amp in the room syndrome perhaps).  The key is a high cut instead around 3-4khz to simulate a real bass cab roll off.  This, for me, more closely represents a DI from an amp going straight to the desk. Hopefully, this will translate nicely to FOH when we try that.

FWIW, I also tried my backup preamp, a Valetone Dapper Bass straight into the headrush.  Sounded fine. Sure, it's not as refined as the Helix, but it simulates a bass amp with 3 band eq and I'm sure it will get me out of a jam if need be. It may even suffice for the odd small gig with a short set where I need to travel light.

Both of the guitarists use a Helix as well, each through a Yamaha DXR10, so I tried my bass through that as well.  Not quite as deep but again, will get me out of a jam if the headrush fails. Likewise, my Headrush will be more than adequate to share as a backup to one of the Yamahas.

Lastly, as another experiment. I remembered the smaller headrush FRFR-108 rolls of the low end around 70hz, so I set the hpf to that frequency. More than adequate for rehearsal, so I'm almost tempted to pick one up for rehearsals and small low volume gigs.

[spyder]

Thanks for the update. 

I have the HeadRush Gigboard and the FRFR info is helping me to make a decision on what to do next. 

Keep the info coming. 

[EBS_freak]

I love this thread. Not so long ago, I was being shot down at the prospect of not using a bass rig as a bass rig.

Thank for the tech Gods for change! 😛

[Frank Blank]

5 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

I love this thread. Not so long ago, I was being shot down at the prospect of not using a bass rig as a bass rig.

Thank for the tech Gods for change! 😛

I agree totally, this thread has been a real eye opener for me and has changed my entire outlook on bass amplification. Finally I’ve got the pure tone from my basses that I’ve been looking for for decades!

Edited May 30, 2019 by Frank Blank

[Dennis1971]

Thanks for the update, pretty much made the decision to get FRFR speaker to use with the ZOOM B1 Four. Headrush seems to be the affordable option.

[Greg Edwards69]

5 hours ago, Frank Blank said:

I agree totally, this thread has been a real eye opener for me and has changed my entire outlook on bass amplification. Finally I’ve got the pure tone from my basses that I’ve been looking for fro decades!

Absolutely.  I've been aware of amp modelling for some time but just didn't 'get it'.  I didn't quite get the value of running an amp modeller into a bass amp and cab which has it's own voice (even when using the fx return).  An frfr speaker was the missing link and now it all makes sense.  I've now got a bunch of classic amp sounds at my fingertips (or toes) and I know they'll sound pretty much identical to the real thing.

[Frank Blank]

6 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

Absolutely.  I've been aware of amp modelling for some time but just didn't 'get it'.  I didn't quite get the value of running an amp modeller into a bass amp and cab which has it's own voice (even when using the fx return).  An frfr speaker was the missing link and now it all makes sense.  I've now got a bunch of classic amp sounds at my fingertips (or toes) and I know they'll sound pretty much identical to the real thing.

I’m yet to try amp modelling. I play acoustic basses that were purchased purely on their un-amplified tone and when I do amplify them I don’t use and effects apart from a touch of compression. I’m havering at the moment between purchasing a Helix Stomp or a Grace Designs Alix. I get the feeling that I wouldn’t use 95% of the Helix’s functionality but I’m sure I’d have fun playing about with it whereas the Alix appears to be the best type of preamp for my basses and band but it’s expensive for what is essentially my bass EQ. I think I’d like to try amp models though, who knows it might be a whole new world!

[LukeFRC]

3 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

I’m yet to try amp modelling. I play acoustic basses that were purchased purely on their un-amplified tone and when I do amplify them I don’t use and effects apart from a touch of compression. I’m havering at the moment between purchasing a Helix Stomp or a Grace Designs Alix. I get the feeling that I wouldn’t use 95% of the Helix’s functionality but I’m sure I’d have fun playing about with it whereas the Alix appears to be the best type of preamp for my basses and band but it’s expensive for what is essentially my bass EQ. I think I’d like to try amp models though, who knows it might be a whole new world!

Did you try @owens Felix at the bass bash? 

[Owen]

5 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

Did you try @owens Felix at the bass bash? 

Sadly not. Ho hum

[Frank Blank]

6 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

Did you try @owens Felix at the bass bash? 

 

3 minutes ago, owen said:

Sadly not. Ho hum 

No I bloody didn’t, nor did I try @bassace‘s at last year’s South East Bass Bash, I failed twice.

[Owen]

46 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

 

No I bloody didn’t, nor did I try @bassace‘s at last year’s South East Bass Bash, I failed twice.

Must try harder.

[LukeFRC]

1 hour ago, Frank Blank said:

 

No I bloody didn’t, nor did I try @bassace‘s at last year’s South East Bass Bash, I failed twice.

You would have liked I think

[Frank Blank]

31 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

You would have liked I think

I’m sure I would but I’m an idiot for buying things on reputation without trying them out first so I’m definitely trying one first.

[Owen]

1 hour ago, Frank Blank said:

I’m sure I would but I’m an idiot for buying things on reputation without trying them out first so I’m definitely trying one first.

Ha! Who would do such a thing?

[Frank Blank]

1 hour ago, owen said:

Ha! Who would do such a thing?

Moi.

[M@23]

Another +1 for the Headrush FRFR112. 

Partnered with the Helix Stomp, it is a great and capable rig. There's more volume and lows there, if called upon, than my previous (small/medium) traditional bass rigs. 

 

[BigRedX]

15 hours ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

Absolutely.  I've been aware of amp modelling for some time but just didn't 'get it'.  I didn't quite get the value of running an amp modeller into a bass amp and cab which has it's own voice (even when using the fx return).  An frfr speaker was the missing link and now it all makes sense.  I've now got a bunch of classic amp sounds at my fingertips (or toes) and I know they'll sound pretty much identical to the real thing.

IMO amp and cab modelling is a bit of a red herring.

After all the original purpose of a bass amp and speakers was simply a way of getting a loud sound out of a solid electric instrument. The fact that amps (and cabs) had "sounds" was mostly an accident or limitations of the technology in the 50s and 60s, and has only become desirable later on once we've all got used to hearing them. The original musical instrument amplifiers were never design to have a sound. They were supposed to as neutral as the technology and price point allowed them to be.

Also most bass sounds we hear and like have never been anywhere near an amp or cabs. In the studio it will have been DI'd directly from the bass into some very expensive studio outboard EQ and compression units. On stage it will have been DI'd directly into the PA system.

[EBS_freak]

23 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

IMO amp and cab modelling is a bit of a red herring.

After all the original purpose of a bass amp and speakers was simply a way of getting a loud sound out of a solid electric instrument. The fact that amps (and cabs) had "sounds" was mostly an accident or limitations of the technology in the 50s and 60s, and has only become desirable later on once we've all got used to hearing them. The original musical instrument amplifiers were never design to have a sound. They were supposed to as neutral as the technology and price point allowed them to be.

Also most bass sounds we hear and like have never been anywhere near an amp or cabs. In the studio it will have been DI'd directly from the bass into some very expensive studio outboard EQ and compression units. On stage it will have been DI'd directly into the PA system.

Ding ding. Winner.

This was the very start of me getting away from amps. I always loved the sound that I could get when recording but could never seem to replicate it through any rig I tried. It was only when I stumbled upon EBS - and the HD350 and TD650 that I got back towards the studio sound that I was looking for - but it was still good but not quite there. Then I started experimenting with studio preamps and power amps through PA cabs... then I removed the power amp element to make use of DSPs to get a flatter response from the cab. There it was. But then I wanted a bit more diversity in my sounds.... so that's when I got a Kemper. So now, I run channel strip profiles, with the cab emulation turned off... and I'm in a very happy place. 

[Greg Edwards69]

4 hours ago, BigRedX said:

IMO amp and cab modelling is a bit of a red herring.

After all the original purpose of a bass amp and speakers was simply a way of getting a loud sound out of a solid electric instrument. The fact that amps (and cabs) had "sounds" was mostly an accident or limitations of the technology in the 50s and 60s, and has only become desirable later on once we've all got used to hearing them. The original musical instrument amplifiers were never design to have a sound. They were supposed to as neutral as the technology and price point allowed them to be.

Also most bass sounds we hear and like have never been anywhere near an amp or cabs. In the studio it will have been DI'd directly from the bass into some very expensive studio outboard EQ and compression units. On stage it will have been DI'd directly into the PA system.

Oh yes, I'm quite aware of that and it's history. It's my main reason and argument for not using cab modelling with the helix and my Headrush speaker. Like you say, most recorded and live bass sounds we hear are either DI, straight into the desk or from the amp's DI. It's rare you'll see a bass cab miked up as the only source, it's usually mixed with a DI if it is.

My previous amps have been pretty neutral sounding and I generally eq for the room rather than a specific tone - that what my pedals are for. I haven't really been a fan of amps that imprint a certain colour on every bass that's plugged into them - hence I've never really explored bass amp modelling.  That said, I'm loving the tone of the GK 800rb model in the Helix, it just works for me. A judicious and precise hi cut and it's there. And I can use the global eq to compensate for different rooms acoustics.  It's certainly made my life easier.  Having the confidence that the sound I get on stage will be replicated fairly accurately through the FOH will make a big difference. None of this pre/post DI nonsense. If I need to adjust my stage sound for the room I can do that without interfering with the FOH sound.

[Greg Edwards69]

4 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Ding ding. Winner.

This was the very start of me getting away from amps. I always loved the sound that I could get when recording but could never seem to replicate it through any rig I tried. It was only when I stumbled upon EBS - and the HD350 and TD650 that I got back towards the studio sound that I was looking for - but it was still good but not quite there. Then I started experimenting with studio preamps and power amps through PA cabs... then I removed the power amp element to make use of DSPs to get a flatter response from the cab. There it was. But then I wanted a bit more diversity in my sounds.... so that's when I got a Kemper. So now, I run channel strip profiles, with the cab emulation turned off... and I'm in a very happy place. 

I used to use Pod Farm for practice at home and the odd bit of recording. I didn't care for any of the bass amp models and much preferred the console emulations