Interesting FRFR story..

[4000]

35 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Haha - that's exactly where I got stuck two years back! I ended up with a BF SC (or BB2)  & D class head for rehearsal / gigging purposes. My back is happy.

The real challenge, if the FRFR crew are being honest, is getting a FRFR unit that is not specifically tuned for bass which can deal with bass frequencies as well as a quality dedicated bass cab. From what I have gleaned, you need to be looking at something like an RCF 735A to really deliver similar quality.

Obviously there will be plenty of kit that will be "good enough". But, even then, not at the weight of a BF SC cab. 

I do like the idea of having a stage rig that reflects what is happening out front, if only to save the hassle of getting an onstage sound I’m happy with and then trying to get it to sound anything like that out front (our current monitors sound nothing like the FOH, bass-wise, so that doesn’t work). What I don’t want is to end up with a heavier, far more complex (even if it’s only initially, as I haven’t got the time or patience these days) rig to do the same job. 
 

BTW, just in case anyone thinks I must have no idea about sound, that’s not actually the case. I have had several quality recording engineers comment extremely favourably on my ears over the years. Bass aside, particularly since everything became digital/virtual (at which point I accepted dinosaur status), I’ve just generally told far more technically qualified people what I want and let them get on with it until I’m happy. Sadly, whilst that’s still the case in the studio, these days we can seldom afford a sound man live. 

[Frank Blank]

25 minutes ago, 4000 said:

K12.2 = definitely too heavy. It’s not that I can’t lift it; I can still shift some serious weight when required. It’s the effect on my back afterwards. I won’t go into details. 
 

K10 = still heavier than ideal, although maybe workable. Obviously 1 of my cabs only weighs 15lb. I’d have to try one. 

I have a bad back too which is why I zip mine about on a sack barrow.

[4000]

At the point where it actually becomes workable again (assuming it ever does), I may have to take my rig somewhere that has the relevant kit in stock and give it a bit of an a/b. I realise that still won’t be ideal, but at least I can get an idea of the possibilities and positives/negatives. 

[Frank Blank]

Just now, 4000 said:

At the point where it actually becomes workable again (assuming it ever does), I may have to take my rig somewhere that has the relevant kit in stock and give it a bit of an a/b. I realise that still won’t be ideal, but at least I can get an idea of the possibilities and positives/negatives. 

You are certainly welcome to try mine, including the barrow!

[4000]

13 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

You are certainly welcome to try mine, including the barrow!

😁

Cheers; unfortunately I don’t drive and you’re a long way away, but thanks for the offer! 

[Jack]

36 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

 

It depends on the circumstance. Some swear on their RCF and I don't want to contradict their experience but the K12.2 that frank black has would kick out enough low end for me, as the gigs I play and have played have been in venues with PA support that can take the bass. 

May I ask what kind of gigs those are please? Other instruments and volume wise? I'm trying to get a feeling of what I might need and a K12.2 is top of my list.

[Frank Blank]

22 minutes ago, 4000 said:

😁

Cheers; unfortunately I don’t drive and you’re a long way away, but thanks for the offer! 

Where are you? 

[Bridgehouse]

1 hour ago, 4000 said:

K12.2 = definitely too heavy. It’s not that I can’t lift it; I can still shift some serious weight when required. It’s the effect on my back afterwards. I won’t go into details. 
 

K10 = still heavier than ideal, although maybe workable. Obviously 1 of my cabs only weighs 15lb. I’d have to try one. 

It may seem heavy on paper at 14kg ish - but the k10.2 is actually very luggable due to its shape, compactness, and handy carrying bag/cover. 
 

I find it easier to shift about than some cabs I’ve had which have been lighter...

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, LukeFRC said:

corrected it for you!  

I agree though, if you've got a bass cab designed for a fairly flat response. Barefaced BB2 is by far the best thing on the market in that respect IMO. 

It depends on the circumstance. Some swear on their RCF and I don't want to contradict their experience but the K12.2 that frank black has would kick out enough low end for me, as the gigs I play and have played have been in venues with PA support that can take the bass. 

Thanks Luke - I gladly accept your corrections, which all make good sense!

The question arises would the K12.2 provide enough low end if they were the main PA speakers? Or are we talking about getting the heavier RCF 735As to deliver this?

[Aside - we use RCF 310As which are just the ticket in terms of power and portability for vocals, sax, and acoustic guitar. If we tried putting bass through them, I suspect it would be a non starter, and the advice on this thread seems to be that we'd need something along the lines of the bigger RCFs to deal with bass also. I did some sums right at the start of the thread and going from 310As + quality bass backline to e.g. 735As didn't result in any weight saving although there was potentially a bit of a cost saving].

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Al Krow

[LukeFRC]

32 minutes ago, Jack said:

May I ask what kind of gigs those are please? Other instruments and volume wise? I'm trying to get a feeling of what I might need and a K12.2 is top of my list.

My band back a while now was a 6 piece, toy keyboard, synth, trumpet, drum machine, loops, guitar and bass and about 3 or 4 vox. We were lucky in that we went straight from the starter gigs too fairly good venues with nice PA systems and good sound people. (Since then mainly christian/church stuff to various sizes.) 

The main questions are - what's providing the FOH sound and what can that do, and how much stage volume do you want. I've always been taught, and am of the opinion that as low as possible stage volume is the ideal. So enough volume to hear myself over however loud the drummer is. I'ld take a PA wedge over a bass amp given the choice. BUT that's presuming the PA is good enough to play the low end.

It's also not very rock and roll, or suitable for everyone. Go onto talkbass for instance and there seems to be a lot more venues, but more emphasis on bass players taking their rig and it has to carry the whole venue. 

[4000]

10 hours ago, Frank Blank said:

Where are you? 

North west.

[Jack]

10 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

My band back a while now was a 6 piece, toy keyboard, synth, trumpet, drum machine, loops, guitar and bass and about 3 or 4 vox. We were lucky in that we went straight from the starter gigs too fairly good venues with nice PA systems and good sound people. (Since then mainly christian/church stuff to various sizes.)

Hmmmm, that sounds a little quieter than us.

 

10 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

The main questions are - what's providing the FOH sound and what can that do, and how much stage volume do you want. I've always been taught, and am of the opinion that as low as possible stage volume is the ideal. So enough volume to hear myself over however loud the drummer is. I'ld take a PA wedge over a bass amp given the choice. BUT that's presuming the PA is good enough to play the low end.

Two bands, both are 2 guitars, me, drums. One is lighter indie rock using 2x RCF 312 and a 7005ii as PA, the other is harder biker rock with an Alto TS115A and TSSub18 per side. In both bands we use my Behringer XR18.

 

In the past I've used a GK Fusion with either a BF Compact or 2x Midget stack, and then I made the move to a FR800 (or two....) neither rig ever had to work hard. We're fairly quiet for rock bands, I'm in charge of the PA and because of that I'm happy to high pass the wedge or whatever. I guess I'm looking for 'stage volume plus', we play some very large biker rallies and outdoor festivals where the PA is provided but I certainly need to be heard on a loudish stage with a full drummer. I often just play straight into the pa and don't need to bring any of my own amp, but 'often' isn't 'always'.

 

10 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

It's also not very rock and roll, or suitable for everyone. Go onto talkbass for instance and there seems to be a lot more venues, but more emphasis on bass players taking their rig and it has to carry the whole venue. 

Whilst I'm still very much in love with rock n roll itself I'm done with the trappings! If we play pubs we have our own pa (ranging from the acceptable Alto to the quite good RCF outlined above) and if it's more than about 100 people we tend to have a proper pa company. It's just that I don't want to spend quite a lot of money on a solution that may be small, portable and a great match for my pedalboard, but ultimately not loud enough. I might just either get a pair of the QSC, a bigger cabinet like the RCF 745 or even something like a QSC for most gigs and then a Peavey halfstack or whatever for outdoor gigs....

[BigRedX]

My experience is that the benefits of going pre-amp/modeller with an FRFR depend on the number of gigs you do where the bass is in the PA and how energetic you are on stage.

I got rid of my rig because having played almost 400 gigs over the last 10 years I can think of less than 10 where my bass didn't go into the PA, and because given enough space I'm a fairly energetic/mobile performer, I found that I couldn't hear my rig most of the time unless I was stood directly in front of it. This was either because I'd been asked to turn down so far, so as not to mess up the FoH sound or because the stage was too big for even my 1kW rig to give a balanced coverage where ever I was stood.

With the FRFR I usually aim it sideways across the stage so that the rest of the band can hear me without needing to have too much additional bass in the foldback. Also this means that am able to use parts of the stage (or even off-stage) for my speakers that normally wouldn't be used or would look wrong with a conventional bass rig. Nowadays for the bigger gigs, I don't even bother bringing the FRFR as the foldback will be more than adequate for me and the rest of my band to hear the bass. It helps that I'm not precious about having to have the perfect bass tone on stage. So long as I can hear what I'm playing and it sounds good FoH, that will do for me.

[Chienmortbb]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

My experience is that the benefits of going pre-amp/modeller with an FRFR depend on the number of gigs you do where the bass is in the PA and how energetic you are on stage.

I got rid of my rig because having played almost 400 gigs over the last 10 years I can think of less than 10 where my bass didn't go into the PA, and because given enough space I'm a fairly energetic/mobile performer, I found that I couldn't hear my rig most of the time unless I was stood directly in front of it. This was either because I'd been asked to turn down so far, so as not to mess up the FoH sound or because the stage was too big for even my 1kW rig to give a balanced coverage where ever I was stood.

With the FRFR I usually aim it sideways across the stage so that the rest of the band can hear me without needing to have too much additional bass in the foldback. Also this means that am able to use parts of the stage (or even off-stage) for my speakers that normally wouldn't be used or would look wrong with a conventional bass rig. Nowadays for the bigger gigs, I don't even bother bringing the FRFR as the foldback will be more than adequate for me and the rest of my band to hear the bass. It helps that I'm not precious about having to have the perfect bass tone on stage. So long as I can hear what I'm playing and it sounds good FoH, that will do for me.

Sadly those luxuries are far beyond what most of us weekend warriors can dream of. However it does suggest Horses for courses and although my head has a DI out, I always have my Orchid DI on the pedal board just in case. The irony is that 4 out of 5 times I have to loan it to get someone else out of a jam. 

[BigRedX]

7 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

Sadly those luxuries are far beyond what most of us weekend warriors can dream of. However it does suggest Horses for courses and although my head has a DI out, I always have my Orchid DI on the pedal board just in case. The irony is that 4 out of 5 times I have to loan it to get someone else out of a jam. 

The thing is I don't consider it as a "luxury".

I'm essentially a "weekend warrior" too. It's just that I play in originals bands and having full in-house PA support is very much the norm at the venues we play. Apart for a some very small venues in the early 80s when we had to hire in the PA out of our fee and often all we could afford was a vocal only one, this has always been the way for the bands I've played in.

[akabane]

Okay you traitors of what's old and heavy - after 59 pages I'm sold on the idea of trying a FRFR speaker.

I would like some guidance though: there's been a lot of opinions on the matter, but they are all very specific on the bands/situations and sound everyone is looking for. I'm hoping that by giving a bit of background on how I would use such system will help you guide me.

I am primarily looking to use the ampsim + frfr combo as an avenue to explore solo projects sounds. It would pretty much never be used in a 'band' settings - excluding few exceptions where there could be a jazzy style drums playing together, and/or other instruments that are inherently not loud (1 or 2 acoustic string instruments, one wind instrument) and wouldn't even need to be much amplified in the settings I'd be playing in.

We are talking small, quiet pubs, small churches used for performances, small theaters and so on - most of these places will also have a small but dedicated PA system.

I would make extensive use of a low B, as well as higher frequencies of modulated C string with weird effects and sounds.

I definitely do NOT need a giant monster going in that can make walls tremble and push the sound out between two metal guitars (there's different equipment I'd use for that situation).

As reference, In such situations I would just bring my simple Ampeg combo (which is a small 50watt RMS with a 12' at 39lbs - don't think I could actually get lighter, but a comfier form factor would help a lot) and it would be plentiful (given some PA support as I said). Pretty much it's "practice land' in terms of requirements, just with the ability to get a bit louder if need be (and as far asI've understood so far, that would not be a problem with any of the ones I'm looking at).

The best contender at the moment would seem to be the QSC K12.2. On specs, my Ampeg combo should be able to reproduce 50hz - would that be the case with the QSC K12.2? If so, is that hope gone if one would go even down tinier with a 10', for example a K10.2?

The highest aim for the rig would be portability and weight/comfort of transport over sheer power.

So, given the requirements, what do you guys think? When using a 12.2 or 10.2 would I lose enough of the low end vs a 'normal' bass cab, or is it a problem I'd only encounter trying to push highest volumes?

 

Thanks! (And this all sounds very exciting )

 

 

 

 

[4000]

3 hours ago, BigRedX said:

My experience is that the benefits of going pre-amp/modeller with an FRFR depend on the number of gigs you do where the bass is in the PA and how energetic you are on stage.

I got rid of my rig because having played almost 400 gigs over the last 10 years I can think of less than 10 where my bass didn't go into the PA, and because given enough space I'm a fairly energetic/mobile performer, I found that I couldn't hear my rig most of the time unless I was stood directly in front of it. This was either because I'd been asked to turn down so far, so as not to mess up the FoH sound or because the stage was too big for even my 1kW rig to give a balanced coverage where ever I was stood.

With the FRFR I usually aim it sideways across the stage so that the rest of the band can hear me without needing to have too much additional bass in the foldback. Also this means that am able to use parts of the stage (or even off-stage) for my speakers that normally wouldn't be used or would look wrong with a conventional bass rig. Nowadays for the bigger gigs, I don't even bother bringing the FRFR as the foldback will be more than adequate for me and the rest of my band to hear the bass. It helps that I'm not precious about having to have the perfect bass tone on stage. So long as I can hear what I'm playing and it sounds good FoH, that will do for me.

I go through the PA 99% of the time - ours, as the venues we play almost never have PAs or soundmen - but always sit down at gigs these days, so that’s not a problem. I also don’t like being loud onstage; in the mix is just fine with me.

Have to say one thing that’s always baffled me, even in my jumping about days, is people who have a deafening rig blaring at their ears. I don’t want my rig anywhere near my ears, particularly if it’s loud.

Edited July 17, 2020 by 4000

[Frank Blank]

Whereabouts are you @akabane?

[akabane]

1 hour ago, Frank Blank said:

Whereabouts are you @akabane?

Near Brixton in London

 

[Frank Blank]

8 minutes ago, akabane said:

Near Brixton in London

You are welcome to try mine out Sir.

[Rollin Thunder]

Just ordered a Tech21 Deuce deluxe, sold my Marshall guitar amp, and if this fits the bill selling my bass amp, will just use Deuce deluxe helix stomp, and have a pre amp as back up. Hope it does the job. 

[akabane]

On 17/07/2020 at 19:35, Frank Blank said:

You are welcome to try mine out Sir.

That would be awesome! Whereabouts are you?  

[Owen]

I work in an FE college. The Perf Arts dept need a new PA. Theirs is a 2nd hand Studispares active bin and 12" top. About 12 years old. It is fair to say they have seen better days. The dance teacher does not understand the concept of restraint. I have reccomended a pair of RCF 745 for FOH. A pair of QSC K10.2 for monitors and a pair of QSC K8.2 for the singing teacher for backing tracks and teaching mic technique etc. Obviously I will be auditioning them all on the weekends. I blame this thread. 

[EBS_freak]

Excellent work.

[Owen]

2 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Excellent work.

I have spent quite a lot of the day patting myself on the back.