Interesting FRFR story..

[DiMarco]

Almost a good point. We play music however, not sound.

If the tone of your instrument has a bigger impact on you as a musician, it will inspire you to create. This is how rock music came to be.

 

[charic]

6 minutes ago, DiMarco said:

Almost a good point. We play music however, not sound.

If the tone of your instrument has a bigger impact on you as a musician, it will inspire you to create. This is how rock music came to be.

 

Music is only a combination of sounds though.

It will happen, it's just a matter of time.  Frequency analysis research is going through the roof in recent years and the processing power is coming along nicely to make it achievable and affordable.

All things being equal, if you can't hear a difference do you go for the old school valve amp that requires a cabinet, servicing and micing up and can only do one trick or the emulator that sounds EXACTLY the same.

I know we're not there yet but it will come

[EBS_freak]

The point is, the tone between a modeller and the real amp has become indistinguishable... especially at gig volumes.

Bass through headphones sucks? Are you serious...? It all depends upon the quality of the headphones/IEMs that you are using. Lets have a look at some of the facts here... modern IEMs can go down to 10hz (that's actually lower than you can hear) - and will certainly go lower than the PA systems that are being used when you have gone to watch live bands. The speakers in IEMs are literally a couple of cm away from your ear drum and at that distance are capable of putting out far higher SPL at your ear drum than you could ever imagine compared to the the PA stack. If you want to hear bass, there is no better way.

Eleven Rack. Get it sold. Awful stuff. You say that you have sold the Line 6 stuff... was there a Helix in there?

Valve amps. Sound better? Historically, absolutely. Now? No difference. I like valve stuff as much as the next guy... but you are kidding yourself if you think that modern technology can't churn out the same tones. Remember, there was as many crap valve amps made as good... and lets not talk about the reliability issues associated with valve amps. And carting them around. And having them sound different in every venue... etc...

Here's the thing... when you go to a gig, you aren't actually hearing the raw amp... or speaker... what you are hearing has gone through a mic, through a preamp, through a desk... with infinitely more processing than you could ever hope to have an equivalent of on a traditional amp - before going through the PA amp (probably class D - you know, those things with zero heft) before going out to the front of house. The modeller simply removes the variables - the amp, speaker, environment and mic and gives your the same tone, night in night out without compromise.

If you want hard hitting - my PA, I guarantee, will put out more than any bass rig on BC. If you must have the feeling of air, then get a fan...  or get a kinetic feedback board, or a subpac... or a woojer...

If you want to go deaf, continue as you are and when you got that tinnitus that won't let you sleep at night, ask yourself how much of a happy place your brain is in now.

I don't know sh**? Yup. Completely clueless, me.

Edited November 30, 2017 by EBS_freak

[Bridgehouse]

Well this is interesting, isn't it.

I post some thoughts on an FRFR speaker I bought and look where we end up.

I bought it to amplify my bass signal from the DI of my Ampeg SCR-DI.

Last album we just finished? Bass - Ampeg SCR-DI - Desk. And it sounds like, Er, a bass.

Recorded just like most bass tracks for the last 60 years - straight into the desk. I like the recorded sound, and to replicate that live, I have bought a cab that lets me do that as neutrally as possible with no colouring from a bass cab or amp. 

But this thread ends up as a modelling vs valves vs massive amps vs well, you get the point. 

Emotive subject huh? I always thought bass playing was about what you did with your fingers. 

Then again, you know what they say - opinions are like bumholes - everyone has one, and usually they stink. I would also like to subscribe to the "I know s**t" gang as well please!

[Al Krow]

Ok guys. This has been a massively interesting and useful thread and I must admit has shifted the dial for me in my thinking with regard to my two bands' gigging set up.

Here's where I'm landing: upgrade our RCF 310As PA speakers to either a pair of the Yamaha DXR12 or the QSC K12.2 and use one of the RCF 310As as a monitor.

We're currently using an Allen&Heath Zed 10FX as the mixing desk but we've outgrown it, particularly if bass is now going to be going through this for the first time!

My amp and cab can then just be for home practice and rehearsals and I won't need to cart an amp and cab to gigs anymore. Hmmm...2018 is already starting to have different feel to it for me in terms of gigging than I was expecting!

Two Qs (i) any views or preferences on the Yamaha DXR12 vs the QSC K12.2?  (ii) Any recommendations for an upgrade to the mixing desk? I'm thinking of getting the Allen&Heath Zed60-14FX - anything better for a similar size?

Edited November 30, 2017 by Al Krow

[stingrayPete1977]

1 hour ago, DiMarco said:

Much nonsense going on in this thread.

Modelling I really have tried... It would be so awesome to simply plug in and sound... well awesome. But it did not. It came close but not close enough. Nor do in-ears. Bass through headphones just sucks anyway and will never work for me.

Anyone wanna buy my Eleven rack just yell (already sold the line6 stuff). It hasn't been switched on in over a year.

I use valve amps. It sounds better. Period. If you think not, you probbly haven't ever played through a good full valve stack. 

I use a lightweight 2x12 cab which is loud enough next to a hard hitting drummer in most rooms we play. My amp weighs more then my cab does. Our guitarist is currently using my 100w Engl combo+112 cab which weighs even more. I bring my atm250 mic when bass will be reinforced and want both d.i. and mic signal being used. Otherwise my fuzz and dist will slice skulls in the audience.

Why?

Oldskool rock is not played through computers. That would ruin the whole vibe. The whole point in playing rock is being loud as f**k. It makes the brain a happy place.

Bass is heard through the scrotum as much as it is through the ears. Fact.

Narrowing our stacks down to 2x12 (which really is enough) is as far as narrowing down will go, otherwise the pants wont tremble.

Dinosaur? You don't know sh**.

 

Can you post some links where  and when your band plays so I can avoid them? Thanks

[DiMarco]

Aha. So the PA creating noise levels that have an impact is ok but on the stage itself we should only hear the drumkit.

In-ears (several) I tried had to be turned up so loud it actually hurt my ears. Snaredrum bleeding through my vocal mic (sm58) louder then my voice did. Maybe nice on stadium size stages but not on the smaller ones for sure. You need to be 20+ft away from the drumkit in order to use one and not grow deaf.

I tried Helix in the store and did not like it. It is supposed to model a Mesa bass400+? Sorry it did not come close. Fair enough I should try it in a band setting like I did with the hd and eleven rack to give it a fair chance but my experience with modellers and sansamp alike so far made me not try that. I have turned unwilling by Pods and Eleven racks.

I am really happy with the hexavalve head though. Bass sounds bigger stronger and more lively through it. The Mesa is coming up for sale as I no longer use it eventho it is a great valve amp.

If you guys are right about the current modellers being just as good then why do lots of great bassists keep dragging their Hiwatt/Mesa/Ampeg/Ashdown rigs around? Maybe they know what they're doing?

Insulting these people by calling them dinosaurs is uncalled for. If you use your helixes, fine! Some people choose otherwise and use the real gear instead of the copied.

 

[DiMarco]

Soz I was typing that as you posted. I will no longer sidetrack this thread.

 

[stingrayPete1977]

Do you think Flea needs 7 large bass cabs when he wears in ears? They are there to create a wall to hide stuff where the dj guy stands and to sell GK cabs to dinosaurs

[Bridgehouse]

My band is so crap and unpopular that in some venues we have to play on a tiny stage. That means that for those gigs I have to leave the 100kg valve head and cabs at home otherwise there wouldn't be room on stage for the keyboard player, the drummer and possibly the guitarist too.

[Bridgehouse]

3 minutes ago, DiMarco said:

Soz I was typing that as you posted. I will no longer sidetrack this thread.

 

I don't mind at all - I was more amused that one mention of something modelling and it started to feel like trench warfare 

[la bam]

Ive listed my dxr12s in the for sale section if anyone is thinking of going that route.

The frfr route does give you so much more flexibility, and ideal for any situation from gigging to front of house to home practice to spare pa and main pa.

Prob worth mentioning as well for frfr purposes these have a mixer on the back of each cab that takes xlr, jackx2, or phono. They also have frequency level switches that make them ideal for practice and loud gigging. You also have the option to link the cabs via xlr or (a neat trick) go into 1 cab link to the other then make both cabs stereo (so it can be done from one cable input).

[EBS_freak]

11 hours ago, DiMarco said:

Aha. So the PA creating noise levels that have an impact is ok but on the stage itself we should only hear the drumkit.

In-ears (several) I tried had to be turned up so loud it actually hurt my ears. Snaredrum bleeding through my vocal mic (sm58) louder then my voice did. Maybe nice on stadium size stages but not on the smaller ones for sure. You need to be 20+ft away from the drumkit in order to use one and not grow deaf.

I tried Helix in the store and did not like it. It is supposed to model a Mesa bass400+? Sorry it did not come close. Fair enough I should try it in a band setting like I did with the hd and eleven rack to give it a fair chance but my experience with modellers and sansamp alike so far made me not try that. I have turned unwilling by Pods and Eleven racks.

I am really happy with the hexavalve head though. Bass sounds bigger stronger and more lively through it. The Mesa is coming up for sale as I no longer use it eventho it is a great valve amp.

If you guys are right about the current modellers being just as good then why do lots of great bassists keep dragging their Hiwatt/Mesa/Ampeg/Ashdown rigs around? Maybe they know what they're doing?

Insulting these people by calling them dinosaurs is uncalled for. If you use your helixes, fine! Some people choose otherwise and use the real gear instead of the copied.

 

So the PA outfront - people seeing a gig is usually an isolated event where if they are uncomfortable with the volume, should be standing further back. Most gigs are too loud anyway and will cause permanent hearing damage.... but you can always take earplugs... but again, that isnt rock and roll is it? When playing regularly in a band, this problem is compounded further as despite what the literature says, playing with earplugs doesn't attenuate across the frequency range like one big volume knob... so a lot of people still play without them. Standing next to a drum kit with loads of splashy cymbals and amps running flat out is also going to play havoc with your hearing. Buy hey, as long as it's flapping those trousers, all is good.

Here's the rub - those amps running loud are going to bleed absolutely everywhere... straight into the mics, muddying up the mix somewhat rotten. That will make the band sound worse out front. Everybody knows, whether you are in the studio, or live, mic bleed is not a sound mans friend. Similarly, running amps so loud you can hear them over the PA is equally frustrating, as you can't get a good mix and you can't get a good balance between the left and right speakers because those loud guitar amps are highly directional. Pity the guy in the audience who is getting blasted by it. Pity the guy who has come to the gig and is off axis to the guitar amp and can't hear the guitar. Yes, the sound guy could put more of it through the PA... but then poor guy getting blasted is now getting full on assaulted and everybody is questioning whether the sound guy is deaf because there is so much guitar in the mix. You yourself have stated that bleed into mics (from the cymbals etc) is a problem. It is - so by having the onstage volumes more quiet alleviates this. Yes, I know you are going to say that it's just not rock and roll  to not be smashing seven shades of sh** out of a kit... but you should be playing for your audience... not for self indulgence. Your band will sound better with a smaller / less loud kit and darker cymbals to avoid all the shrillness coming over the cymbals. Will make your vocal sound infinitely better too. 

So lets talk in ears. Which inears were you using? When I am talking about inears, I talk of inears that give you 26db attenuation - much more than your typical 17db attenuation that you typically get from ear plugs. Note - 17 to 26dB is a big amount. 26 is like putting your fingers deep into your ear holes. If you had to turn your inears up so loud, I guarantee that you did not have a good seal on them. If you did, you can do a gig on inears at whisper volumes. Fact. Standing 1 metre or 1 mile from the drum kit will make no difference when the band is playing because the isolation provided by the inears means you can't hear the ambient drums with any clarity or volume. So when you say the snare is too loud in your ears, it's because it's too loud in the mix being supplied to your inears... not because you are standing too close to the drums. If this indeed the case, I know everything I need to know about your IEMs. They either don't provide any serious attenuation or they are a poor fit. This isn't my opinion. This is fact. Theres guys out there using IEMs in tiny venues every day - and it's arguably better to use them in those type of venues than the stadiums because you will be usually standing a lot close to the drums due to the reduced stage areas.

So you tried the Helix instore? I'm glad you had that time to learn the system intimately in order to form a good opinion on how it can work for you. I guarantee that the store would have set it up in it's optimum setting and nobody had messed around with the presets or anything like that too. Likewise, I'm sure your rock and roll ears are a good medium to draw such statements. Should also point out that modelling from the Pod and Eleven Rack is very, very old and not in the same category as the modern offerings from the main players, Helix, Kemper and Axe FX. If I was to blind test you with a Kemper, there is zero chance that you'd be able to tell the difference between the two... even with your golden ears. This isn't me saying this... this is the industry.

These great bass players that you talk of - most of them don't. They have roadies. On theatre shows, they will have carriage (this in particular will determine what they choose to use - the truth is, they'll use what ever is the least hassle - they won't even care if it sounds any good or not most of the time). And again, a lot of the time, it's stage dressing... because the audience want to see something on stage, even if the sound isn't coming from it. A lot of these great players ARE using modellers - because they can take their rig with them on a USB stick. It makes it more consistent when the hire stock hasn't got your amp and cab of choice. What you have to remember also, is that a lot of these guys are using the gear because they are either endorsed to do so, ego driven because they want to see their image in the bass rags or because they are dinosaurs. As I've stated, theres nothing wrong with dino gear... but things can be done differently. There is a load of backlash against inears and modellers... and as demonstrated by yourself, those opinions are usually strongest from the people who haven't tried the gear properly. Your inears experience is typical - using the buds you got free with your phone does not count as trying inears in anger. I, along with a load of other guys have been the dinosaurs.... and thats cool... because modelling was pants compared to where it is now. But I kept my eye on the modelling market as I knew that if they got it nailed, thats where we should be... in terms of tone and portability... and safety to our own ears.

Im sorry that dinosaurs are insulted by such a label. I kinda get fed up of being called a sound geek. Ah well, this is the snowflakeosaurus generation after all.

Right, I'm going to find a corner to cry in because I think somebody accused me of not knowing sh**. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by EBS_freak

[stingrayPete1977]

3 hours ago, Bridgehouse said:

I don't mind at all - I was more amused that one mention of something modelling and it started to feel like trench warfare 

I think it's related though,  full range amp and full range PA equals full range goodness for everyone.

Edited November 30, 2017 by stingrayPete1977

[Bridgehouse]

5 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

I think it's related though,  full range amp and full range PA equals fill range goodness for everyone.

Mention modelling on some guitar forums and you will be banned for spamming 

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Here's where I'm landing: upgrade our RCF 310As PA speakers to either a pair of the Yamaha DXR12 or the QSC K12.2 and use one of the RCF 310As as a monitor.

We're currently using an Allen&Heath Zed 10FX as the mixing desk but we've outgrown it, particularly if bass is now going to be going through this for the first time!

My amp and cab can then just be for home practice and rehearsals and I won't need to cart an amp and cab to gigs anymore. Hmmm...2018 is already starting to have different feel to it for me in terms of gigging than I was expecting!

Two Qs (i) any views or preferences on the Yamaha DXR12 vs the QSC K12.2?  (ii) Any recommendations for an upgrade to the mixing desk? I'm thinking of getting the Allen&Heath Zed60-14FX - anything better for a similar size?

I would take the QSC over the Yamaha... but would take a RCF 735 over the QSC - easier to carry, similar output - but more importantly, the all important 3" VC in the horn that enables it to have a lower crossover to free up the woofer to be more effective in the lows whilst given your vocals a lot more headroom. The 310s will do you for monitors but you will likely to need to roll off the some of the subs as you are asking a relatively little box to do quite a lot. 

I would go for a XR16 in that price range - digital and controllable via an iPad/android/laptop. Most important thing is that it opens up a lot in terms of gates, eq and compression on each channel. You'll be able to track down feedback a lot easier... as you have 31 band eq available on all outputs - and is perfect for crafting inears mixes if you want to explore that route at a later date. And it's tiny and can sit next to you on stage. The functionality of the Zed60 in comparison is miniscule.

Edited November 30, 2017 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

4 minutes ago, Bridgehouse said:

Mention modelling on some guitar forums and you will be banned for spamming 

Pfft.

Dinochat.

[Bridgehouse]

Just now, EBS_freak said:

Pfft.

Dinochat.

Au contraire - Tweedchat

[EBS_freak]

1 minute ago, Bridgehouse said:

Au contraire - Tweedchat

Geography teacher weekend warriors.

...with leather elbow patches

Edited November 30, 2017 by EBS_freak

[Bridgehouse]

5 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Geography teacher weekend warriors.

...with leather elbow patches

Actually, mostly our friends over the pond...

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

I would take the QSC over the Yamaha... but would take a RCF 735 over the QSC - easier to carry, similar output - but more importantly, the all important 3" VC in the horn that enables it to have a lower crossover to free up the woofer to me more effective in the lows. The 310s will do you for monitors but you will likely to need to roll off the some of the subs as you are asking a relatively little box to do quite a lot. 

I would go for a XR16 in that price range - digital and controllable via an iPad/android/laptop. Most important thing is that it opens up a lot in terms of gates, eq and compression on each channel. You'll be able to track down feedback a lot easier... as you have 31 band eq available on all outputs - and is perfect for crafting inears mixes if you want to explore that route at a later date. And it's tiny and can sit next to you on stage. The functionality of the Zed60 in comparison is miniscule.

The RCF 735A-MkIVs do seem perfect in terms of capability. But I'm baulking a touch at having to cart two 48lbs PA speakers  

QSF K12.2 frequency range of 50Hz - 20kHz (£1,580 a pair) 17.7kg = 39lbs

RCF 735-MkIV 45Hz-20kHz (£1,640 a pair) 21.8kg = 48 lbs each

I take the point on the lows and cross over, which will be important if I'm putting bass through, although the frequency range looks pretty similar for both.

Some follow up Qs if I may:

i) A low B on a 5 string is 31 Hz - that would appear to be below the bottom end of what the RCF can handle. (And I will go even lower with a sub octave pedal i.e. down to 20Hz for E sub). But having said that my VK210MNT seems to handle a low B fine and its frequency range is 45Hz to 16kHz, so I'm clearly missing something here?!

ii) If I'm putting a lot of weird sh*t through my bass amp and cab (e.g. sub-octave, overdrive and filter pedals) wouldn't that be better dealt with by a separate amp and cab rather than trying to get the PA speakers (and similarly the lead guitarists even more weird pedals) to deal with everything, and leave the PA to deal with relatively clean vocals, acoustic guitar and sax? It's kinda a variation of your cross over point. If so, back to square one and sticking to a separate amp and cab for bass!

iii) Interested as to why you say the RCFs will be easier to carry than the QSCs? The weight difference, I appreciate isn't massive. But 40lbs is what I would regard as being my 'comfortable' carry limit. Will the QSCs be "more than good enough" or do I really need the 735s' 15" speakers if I am putting bass through?

iv) I presume you'd agree on active rather than passive?

Edited November 30, 2017 by Al Krow

[Jack]

13 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

i) A low B on a 5 string is 31 Hz - that would appear to be below the bottom end of what the RCF can handle. (And I will go even lower with a sub octave pedal i.e. down to 20Hz for E sub). But having said that my VK210MNT seems to handle a low B fine and its frequency range is 45Hz to 16kHz, so I'm clearly missing something here?!

ii) If I'm putting a lot of weird sh*t through my bass amp and cab (e.g. sub-octave, overdrive and filter pedals) wouldn't that be better dealt with by a separate amp and cab rather than trying to get the PA speakers (and similarly the lead guitarists even more weird pedals) to deal with everything, and leave the PA to deal with relatively clean vocals, acoustic guitar and sax? It's kinda a variation of your cross over point. If so, back to square one and sticking to a separate amp and cab for bass!

iii) Interested as to why you say the RCFs will be asuer to carry than the QSCs? The weight difference, I appreciate isn't massive. But 40lbs is what I would regard as being my 'comfortable' carry limit. Will the QSCs be "more than good enough" or do I really need the 735s' 15" speakers if I am putting bass through?

iv) I presume you'd agree on active rather than passive?

i) That's frequency response by a given definition of 'response'. For an in depth answer feel free to goggle something like 'bass cab -3dB' or something. But they'll be fine.

 

ii) Meh, some people think so, Dave Rat for one. Most people don't bother though. If your band played a big outdoor festival tomorrow you'd use your current rig with a mic to FOH and the PA speakers would be reproducing all of that stuff anyway.

 

iii) Can't comment. I've used and heard them both but as supplied PA, I've never moved either. Sometimes (I have no idea if it's true in this case) something heavy may be easier to carry than something lighter if it's got better handle placement, lower centre of gravity, better dimensions for doorways, etc etc

 

iv) ALWAYS. These days there's no compromise. Even the cheap Altos that my band use are DSP crossed over, limited, frequency-corrected, blah blah blah. Tiny class D amps and good reliable microchips (driven by mobile phones and smart toasters and stuff I imagine) have meant that you can have what would have taken many racks and many thousands of pounds (weight and money) in a cheap PA cab these days.

[EBS_freak]

i. Its very rare that you're hearing the fundamental on your bass... so for your bottom B, you are hearing the harmonics at 62, 104 etc... and the magic of your brain filling in the missing fundamental... Rather than me go into detail, check this out - https://www.studybass.com/gear/bass-tone-and-eq/the-harmonic-series-and-timbre/ and specifically the section "The Missing Fundamental Effect". I can guarantee that your Vanderklay is not reproducing the fundamentals at all or at any significant volume.

ii. It all gets summed, whether it's at your ears or whether it's by a mixer. By minimising whats happening on stage you should get less phase cancellation. Why do CDs not have weird sh*t when they come out a set of hifi speakers? You are essentially doing the same. If you were to get a digital mixer, you could be cleaning all those wild signals up with the compressors and low pass filters also, so it would sound even better. If you get some meaty speakers, they will just give you what your mixing desk is sending out, no sweat.

iii. Those 735s aren't heavy - perhaps saying easier to carry is a bit unfair on the QSCs. The RCFs are an easy one box, one person lift - I know lots of people that have them - and have proven that they can do what I'm talking about here. That 3" VC really is the secret behind the RCFs. 3 and 4 inch voice coils are generally not found in cabs at this price point, especially ones that are made out of plastic. Once you hear them, you'll understand right away. With regards to my preference of 15s over 12... I find that 15s are generally better than the 12s equivalent - for moving air, especially in the lows. These tops will do most bands without subs - and thats putting bass and kick through the tops (assuming your kick is properly compressed and gated). 12" subs are never great, 15" subs are generally a lot better... hence why when going for tops and no subs, I prefer ones that can do a good take on a sub...  hence the 15s on top.

iv. There's positives and negatives for both. For portability, I favour active. If I was to be doing a much bigger gig with separate crossovers and speaker management is in play, then passive is where it's at. But those gigs are wildly different situations. For most, actives is clean and simple and has the built in DSP to protect the speaker. Power goes in here. Signal goes in here from the desk. Job done. I'm sure that they'll be many people that would argue its similar for passive...but theres plenty of examples of that all over the rest of BC. Funnily enough, only last night, I was at a music quiz at a hotel - and the clown running it was using a zoom mic off a recorder into a bastardised set of cables into some Sony hifi plastic tat. He was switching cables for the iPod he playing music through. I just decided to go home and pick up a 312 and mini mixer to save the evening as it was woeful. Mixing desk and speaker, job done. Don't think I could have been arsed if I had plumbed an amp into the rack or anything like that. Anyway, short answer, doesn't really matter.

 

EDIT - jack above nails iv.

Edited November 30, 2017 by EBS_freak

[Al Krow]

Cheers guys!

Actually I've just done the math using my actual rig rather @charic's fantasy 1980s rig examples 

This is the crux of what I am / would be carrying:

2 x RCF 310As plus my amp & cab = 95lbs

2 x 735As = 96lbs

Whether the guitarist wants to bring / use his own amp is irrelevant to me (the 310As can handle guitars anyway if he does) in terms of what I'm taking to / from gigs.

So I think I've just managed to talk myself out of ditching my amp and cab for gigs, and will be sticking with our current set up. Well that will save a few £quid anyway!

Edited November 30, 2017 by Al Krow

[EBS_freak]

Thats fair enough - in your situation, that makes sense to what you are personally carrying and what you are prepared to spend. Of course, the sound out front and volume on stage arguments from the rest of this thread still apply.

What you need to be doing now, is working on the singer to buy the 735s, so you can turn up with a pair of inear monitors and a bass.