Interesting FRFR story..

[Al Krow]

@dave_bass5 Maybe it's BC terminology thing, but in my books, going through one FRFR speaker or going through two FRFR speakers, which happen to also being used the PA, is still "going FRFR".

 

To quote @EBS_freak's helpful summary: "FRFR is a means of hearing your signal without any further influencing factors that will otherwise change your basses tone."

 

Whether you do that through a single FRFR speaker or two PA speakers should not make any difference to what FRFR is; you are substituting a more coloured bass rig in either case.

[dave_bass5]

2 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

@dave_bass5 Maybe it's BC terminology thing, but in my books, going through one FRFR speaker or going through two FRFR speakers, which happen to also being used the PA, is still "going FRFR".

 

 

Ive never heard anyone call a PA ‘FRFR’, as in ‘ill go direct to the FRFR’, and the phrase ‘going through the PA’ is definitely not just just BC terminology. 

Why not just say PA? No one is arguing a PA can consist of FRFR boxes, but the use of the term in this context seems very ‘uniquie’ to me. 

 

[krispn]

Yeah using a FRFR is something I associate with modelling to get the ‘model’ sound accurate ie not running a 112cab model via a 610 cab kinda thing. 
 

Would the bass in your example @Al Krow be going direct to the desk or using some sort of colouration preamp/amp sim via pedalboard etc.?

Edited October 18, 2021 by krispn

[Al Krow]

36 minutes ago, krispn said:

Yeah using a FRFR is something I associate with modelling to get the ‘model’ sound accurate ie not running a 112cab model via a 610 cab kinda thing. 
 

Would the bass in your example @Al Krow be going direct to the desk or using some sort of colouration preamp/amp sim via pedalboard etc.?

Not got that far matey - was just getting the big picture together first, before drilling down to the detail. 

 

I suspect most folk who are "going FRFR" by using what is more commonly known as an active PA speaker (Lol - I mean why don't they just say they're going through a standalone powered PA speaker? I mean everyone understands what one of those is right? But I guess it would make it far too easy to understand and take away the mystique 😁) are using a pedal board of some sort? 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Al Krow

[Chienmortbb]

To be pedantic most people use FRFR to mean a powered PA Top/ Monitor wedge. My rig is Flat Range/Full Response* but ther amp is outside the cabinet and it cannoy be used as a wedge floor monitor.

 

*I know I have crossed terms, it was deliberate.

[bassman7755]

1 hour ago, Delberthot said:

but IEMs are a group decision made by the whole band so we all have to agree.

 

Not necessarily. Drums you can probably hear those anyway even through the IEMs isolating pads, might possibly need an ambient mic, vocals will be going through the PA so you can take an aux out to your own mixer, ditto for any other person in the band using an amp, they will all have a line or DI out somewhere you can use. I'm not going to let the fact that other people in the band dont use them stop me from doing so.

Edited October 18, 2021 by bassman7755

[bassman7755]

1 hour ago, Chienmortbb said:

To be pedantic most people use FRFR to mean a powered PA Top/ Monitor wedge. My rig is Flat Range/Full Response* but ther amp is outside the cabinet and it cannoy be used as a wedge floor monitor.

 

*I know I have crossed terms, it was deliberate.

Your right that is pedantic 😉, I think the key point with FRFR is that your not reliant on a purpose built bass speaker to get your tone - you get your tone from a bunch or pedals and/or a preamp (or even just the bass itself) and then just need something to make it louder. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by bassman7755

[Frank Blank]

In my humble opinion, FRFR to me meant finding amplification that made my basses louder but didn’t colour the tone in any way whatsoever, or at least as close to that as possible. For me, until I found that fundamental basic tone of a bass it was pointless manipulating that tone when you weren’t ‘at zero’ so to speak. I finally felt I’d found that fundamental tone once I began using the QSC K12.2. From that point on I began to manipulate the tone with a HX Stomp, even though these manipulations were tiny, in my opinion this made the signal no longer FRFR. Playing the bass through an active uncoloured speaker with nothing else in the signal chain is what FRFR means to me but the minute you manipulate the tone in any way or listen to the tone via IEMs, a PA, headphones, whatever, then part of your tone is the bass, part of it is the other things the signal is travelling through. So, for me, FRFR was about finding as uncoloured tonal basis from which I could start. All the other benefits, the small size of the rig, the happy faces of FOH engineers when they can DI straight out of the back of the speaker and finally hearing how my basses really actually sound and being able to work with that tone from as close to flat as I could get.

[lemmywinks]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Not got that far matey - was just getting the big picture together first, before drilling down to the detail. 

 

I suspect most folk who are "going FRFR" by using what is more commonly known as an active PA speaker (Lol - I mean why don't they just say they're going through a standalone powered PA speaker? I mean everyone understands what one of those is right? But I guess it would make it far too easy to understand and take away the mystique 😁) are using a pedal board of some sort? 

 

Well there are dedicated powered wedges marketed as FRFR like the Headrush and similar cabs so it's a more popular term now., the QSC K .2 series have a high impedance input option and presets for use with instruments so it's a market they recognise. But yeah I take it to mean someone who uses a powered PA wedge as their sound comes from a preamp or modelling unit, they want to hear that without any amp or cab colouring.

[Al Krow]

5 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

 

Well there are dedicated powered wedges marketed as FRFR like the Headrush and similar cabs so it's a more popular term now., the QSC K .2 series have a high impedance input option and presets for use with instruments so it's a market they recognise. But yeah I take it to mean someone who uses a powered PA wedge as their sound comes from a preamp or modelling unit, they want to hear that without any amp or cab colouring.

 

Exactly. And whether you're using a single powered PA wedge and/or making use of two powered PA tops in your PA is really neither here nor there. 

 

I think there are a few two many wedgies of a powered PA nature or otherwise going on 😁

[Phil Starr]

6 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Been a helpful couple of days working through this with you guys plus a couple of others via PM.

 

I'm really looking at gig set-ups where we are providing the full sound set up - typically pubs and weddings.

 

A. Current set up 

PA = 2 RCF 310As (vocals, acoustic guitar or sax) plus Alto TS308 monitor for vocalists

Bass = BF BB2 + D class amp as backline

Mixer = A&H ZEDFX-14

 

Advantages: good sound, decently light weight (115lbs / 52kgs), paid for(!)

 

B. Putting bass through the PA without IEMs (& assuming the guitarist continues to play through his amp)

having floor monitors for the whole band Would require an upgrade of the PA to 2 RCF 732As to handle bass

Could use the existing RCF 310As as floor monitors 

Keep existing mixer

 

Advantages: more balanced sound with bass through FOH

Disadvantage: this is actually a heavier set-up (138 lbs / 63kg); an RCF 310A will not match the quality of bass I get to hear from my current rig

Overall no significant benefit - pretty much where I was back in 2017 at the start of this thread!

 

C. Putting bass through the PA with IEMs

Would require an upgrade of the PA to 2 RCF 732As

Eliminate need for floor monitors

Upgrade mixer to something like the Behringer XR18 and get the Behringer PM1 or P2 belt pack and KZ ZS10 IEMs (which seem both good value and good quality from the comments above - thank you)

Would need to additionally mic up the toms as well as the kick drum

 

This would deliver a more balanced FOH sound, potentially for no increase in weight. 

 

Conclusion: we've actually already got a surprisingly good-set up for what we do. From the above, there would be no real benefit in switching to FRFR 'in the round' without also adopting IEMs. However using IEMs could tip the balance. Band discussion to ensue - but my guess is that the "thanks for research AK, but if it ain't broke" viewpoint will likely prevail! 😄

Hi Al, our band are going through this slowly and each stage is an improvement. When I joined them I went to see them a couple of times and nearly didn't join them because their sound was so unstable. loved their set and they are really good people in every way but I'd just left a much tighter band and didn't want to go backwards. 

 

The starting set up before I joinedwas with no monitors but the singer used in ears just to shut out the on stage noise and hear herself sing. I can't pitch without monitors so first gig i took my ART310's along. They are fabulous monitors, no sonic nasties so you can push them really hard before feedback. Having good on-stage monitoring really tightened the band up. So at this point we had pretty much your phase B. Only with QSC's as mains but retaining back line, turned down however with bass/guitar going through the PA as well but turned down.

 

Our next step was to purchase a new mixer RCF M18. this has 6auxes and separate mixing with phone apps. First gig I used the monitors with separate mIxes then the drummer and I went in ears. I just used the XLR out from the floor monitor to feed the IEM's so I could pull them out if there was a hitch, there wasn't. The drummer now has IEM's with ZS10's and a Behringer P2 and the guitarist has bought the ZS10's too. I'm expecting the floor monitors to go soon as we get used to it.

 

I haven't had to explain anything, each step was a small one and each one was a noticeable improvement. No arguments we just tried things and they worked. Change is scary for a working band, it might lead to something better but we are all terrified of gear going wrong and having to play through it badly in front of an audience. for band members who don't understand tech it is doubly terrifying. Honestly I think you would benefit is lots of ways in separating your on stage and out front sound and a step by step approach does take people with you.

 

Getting the in ears right is the revelation, you can hear everything like you can in the studio recordings, even better you can turn it all down to a level where your ears don't ring. You even have a volume control for the guitarist and the drummer  All that depends upon the mixer with Auxes for all the band members. The old mixers that could do that weren't really portable and cost more than most bands PA, digital has changed all that. 

 

Oh one last thing, I use the RCF 310's with my duo for everything including bass. Put those babies on poles and the bass sound will be the best you've ever heard outside of a full pro touring rig. they aren't really designed to be flat response on the floor put them at ear level and let them sing, try it in the rehearsal room, I promise bass heaven

 

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Phil Starr

[Downunderwonder]

https://www.bassgearmag.com/cab-lab-barefaced-audio-fr800/ pretty much the same BB2 cabinet but with power amp. Pretty gosh durned flat response.

[bassman7755]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

Getting the in ears right is the revelation, you can hear everything like you can in the studio recordings

 

Yeah I urge everyone to try it, at least once. Its the lack of fatigue of both ears and brain that was the revelation for me - instead of feeling knackered at the end of the gig I felt like I could go right out and do it again.

[Al Krow]

@Phil Starr thanks for taking the time to pen that detailed and yet another very helpful response! Really useful to have a bit of a route map that's been trodden by another band (and one that is also using the excellent 21 lbs active RCF 310As!).

 

I think your and @bassman7755, @lemmywinksand several others' comments have convinced me that IEMs are the way forward. One of our vocalists is about to get a Behringer P2 to pair with his Shure SE215s, and the drummer and myself already have been using the SE 315s as passive ear plugs for gigs. So we've already started down that journey.

 

I'd best make a bee line to one of the excellent IEM threads... 

[Paul S]

My blues trio invested in a pair of RCF EVOX 8 V2.  Has enough beans to cover any small/medium gig where pa isn't supplied.  Massive bonus with these is that you don't need extra monitors as they can be set up behind you without feeding back.  No idea how or why but it is a selling point and does actually work.  I shpe my tone via a pedal and it comes out crystal clear from the pa.  Drums, if needed, and of course vocals.  We can and have put the guitar through but guitarist prefers to crank up his valves.  I have IEMs but haven't needed them yet.

[karlbbb]

12 hours ago, Frank Blank said:

In my humble opinion, FRFR to me meant finding amplification that made my basses louder but didn’t colour the tone in any way whatsoever, or at least as close to that as possible. For me, until I found that fundamental basic tone of a bass it was pointless manipulating that tone when you weren’t ‘at zero’ so to speak. I finally felt I’d found that fundamental tone once I began using the QSC K12.2. From that point on I began to manipulate the tone with a HX Stomp, even though these manipulations were tiny, in my opinion this made the signal no longer FRFR. Playing the bass through an active uncoloured speaker with nothing else in the signal chain is what FRFR means to me but the minute you manipulate the tone in any way or listen to the tone via IEMs, a PA, headphones, whatever, then part of your tone is the bass, part of it is the other things the signal is travelling through. So, for me, FRFR was about finding as uncoloured tonal basis from which I could start. All the other benefits, the small size of the rig, the happy faces of FOH engineers when they can DI straight out of the back of the speaker and finally hearing how my basses really actually sound and being able to work with that tone from as close to flat as I could get.

 

 

FRFR (full range, flat response) refers to a speaker's ability to reproduce an audio signal with no colouration in its entirety, nothing more; a signal cannot be FRFR as it is just that - a signal. FRFR is a technical term so I'm not sure how it could be open to such interpretation.

[Greg Edwards69]

13 hours ago, Frank Blank said:

In my humble opinion, FRFR to me meant finding amplification that made my basses louder but didn’t colour the tone in any way whatsoever, or at least as close to that as possible. For me, until I found that fundamental basic tone of a bass it was pointless manipulating that tone when you weren’t ‘at zero’ so to speak. I finally felt I’d found that fundamental tone once I began using the QSC K12.2. From that point on I began to manipulate the tone with a HX Stomp, even though these manipulations were tiny, in my opinion this made the signal no longer FRFR. Playing the bass through an active uncoloured speaker with nothing else in the signal chain is what FRFR means to me but the minute you manipulate the tone in any way or listen to the tone via IEMs, a PA, headphones, whatever, then part of your tone is the bass, part of it is the other things the signal is travelling through. So, for me, FRFR was about finding as uncoloured tonal basis from which I could start. All the other benefits, the small size of the rig, the happy faces of FOH engineers when they can DI straight out of the back of the speaker and finally hearing how my basses really actually sound and being able to work with that tone from as close to flat as I could get.

For me it was a simple as having a good representation of what was coming out of my Helix in every situation. Whether it's home practice with headphones, frfr speaker at rehearsal or backline at a gig, or sending the signal from helix straight to FOH.  If I've got a sound dialled in that sounds great through my frfr speaker (at gig volume, of course) then I know it's going to sound great in every other scenario.

[BigRedX]

21 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

For me it was a simple as having a good representation of what was coming out of my Helix in every situation. Whether it's home practice with headphones, frfr speaker at rehearsal or backline at a gig, or sending the signal from helix straight to FOH.  If I've got a sound dialled in that sounds great through my frfr speaker (at gig volume, of course) then I know it's going to sound great in every other scenario.

Completely and utterly this.

 

Having a powered FRFR cab removes two more variables from your sound, and means that the sound produced by you, your bass and the Helix are what both the audience FoH and the band on-stage hears. When you are using a conventional bass rig at best the feed from the PA is taken post-EQ from the amp which means that "character" of both the power section of the amp and your cabs is completely by-passed. When was the last time you saw a bass cab mic'd up on stage and knew for a fact that the mic'd sound was what you were hearing through the PA?

[Frank Blank]

55 minutes ago, karlbbb said:

FRFR (full range, flat response) refers to a speaker's ability to reproduce an audio signal with no colouration in its entirety, nothing more; a signal cannot be FRFR as it is just that - a signal. FRFR is a technical term so I'm not sure how it could be open to such interpretation.

 

...which is why throughout my post I wrote, several times, in my opinion and what FRFR meant to me.

[Greg Edwards69]

Going back to question of a 10" frfr as a bass 'rig'. I read a QSC article last week that recommend what speaker of theirs to use for different scenarios and bands. It was interesting to see they recommend the K10.2 as the on stage bass monitor in almost every scenario with FOH support.

https://www.qsc.com/resource-files/productresources/spk/k.2/q_spk_k.2_appguide_livebands.pdf

This has gotten me thinking....

I have a headrush frfr-112 (1x12) and it's baby brother, the frfr-108 (1x8). 

• The former is a heavy lump, but performs well, even without FOH support.
• The latter I bought for rehearals and home use, being a lot smaller. It handle bass suprisingly well. But as Phil Starr aludes to above. I'm not sure I have the confidence to rely on it in a gig situation, even running bass through the FOH. I'm likely being stupid, I know.

The 2 guitarists have a DXR10 each, and we use DXR12 speakers for mains - no subs. Drumwise, we only stick the bass drum through the PA at the moment.

 

As far as I can tell, it sounds pretty good out front with everything going through the DXR12 speaker.  I note the QSC guide recommends 10" tops with a single 12" sub for the average pub rock band, so I'm guessing our 12" tops without a sub are performing similarly and adequately.  I'm not sure how much depth my headrush speaker is providing in the mix without some significant testing.

It's definitely got me thinking about downsizing.  I've had a couple of back issues lately, so I could definitely do with something lighter than the 12" headrush.

We do have a basic, wireless IEM system, but it's not very good (gear4music own brand, get's mushy and compressed with a full mix).  I'm intrigued by the Behringer P2, but I'm not keen on being wired in. But it would be great if we could eschew the backline completely, and/or change the PA to a couple of 10inch tops and a compact sub.

[Greg Edwards69]

23 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Completely and utterly this.

 

Having a powered FRFR cab removes two more variables from your sound, and means that the sound produced by you, your bass and the Helix are what both the audience FoH and the band on-stage hears. When you are using a conventional bass rig at best the feed from the PA is taken post-EQ from the amp which means that "character" of both the power section of the amp and your cabs is completely by-passed. When was the last time you saw a bass cab mic'd up on stage and knew for a fact that the mic'd sound was what you were hearing through the PA?

Indeed. I never really "got" the idea of pre/post DI from my amp head, when the amp and cab together are part of your sound.  As such, I rarely put my bass through the PA and relied on it to fill the room.

 

Likewise, I never really "got" amp and cab modelling when running a modeller through a conventional bass rig. Why invest money in a great sounding amp, only to try and simulate another one through it? Or why send a modelled bass amp to FOH whilst using a real one on stage?

The helix was the lightbulb moment.  Excuse the cliche, but it was game changing. I sincerely wish I had gone down this path years ago, even with just a preamp feeding an frfr speaker (heck even some of my old gear had primitive amp modelling - I just didn't "get it"). I just love how consistent my sound is, whatever the situation.  It's worth the admission price for that alone.

[Al Krow]

33 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

Going back to question of a 10" frfr as a bass 'rig'. I read a QSC article last week that recommend what speaker of theirs to use for different scenarios and bands. It was interesting to see they recommend the K10.2 as the on stage bass monitor in almost every scenario with FOH support.

https://www.qsc.com/resource-files/productresources/spk/k.2/q_spk_k.2_appguide_livebands.pdf

This has gotten me thinking....

I have a headrush frfr-112 (1x12) and it's baby brother, the frfr-108 (1x8). 

• The former is a heavy lump, but performs well, even without FOH support.
• The latter I bought for rehearals and home use, being a lot smaller. It handle bass suprisingly well. But as Phil Starr aludes to above. I'm not sure I have the confidence to rely on it in a gig situation, even running bass through the FOH. I'm likely being stupid, I know.

The 2 guitarists have a DXR10 each, and we use DXR12 speakers for mains - no subs. Drumwise, we only stick the bass drum through the PA at the moment.

 

As far as I can tell, it sounds pretty good out front with everything going through the DXR12 speaker.  I note the QSC guide recommends 10" tops with a single 12" sub for the average pub rock band, so I'm guessing our 12" tops without a sub are performing similarly and adequately.  I'm not sure how much depth my headrush speaker is providing in the mix without some significant testing.

It's definitely got me thinking about downsizing.  I've had a couple of back issues lately, so I could definitely do with something lighter than the 12" headrush.

We do have a basic, wireless IEM system, but it's not very good (gear4music own brand, get's mushy and compressed with a full mix).  I'm intrigued by the Behringer P2, but I'm not keen on being wired in. But it would be great if we could eschew the backline completely, and/or change the PA to a couple of 10inch tops and a compact sub.

Cheers Greg - seems like your last sentence is exactly where I'm at with my band: we've got a couple of 10" tops and a compact sub and I'm looking to see if I can drop the backline. 

 

Wireless would definitely be nicer than wired P2, but starts getting expensive - I've just been discussing a couple of options with another BCer who is well ahead of me on this one! 

[jrixn1]

44 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

It's definitely got me thinking about downsizing.  I've had a couple of back issues lately, so I could definitely do with something lighter than the 12" headrush.

 

I'd see if your guitarist is open to swapping speakers for a gig to see how you get on with a DXR10.

 

Quote

I have a headrush frfr-112 (1x12) and it's baby brother, the frfr-108 (1x8). 

 

I've not tried a Headrush, but I did a couple of gigs with a QSC CP8 (1x8") as my bass monitor (with full PA support).  It was loud enough - I could tell what notes I was playing - but it didn't have much depth tonewise.  Sold it in the end.

[karlbbb]

5 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

 

I'd see if your guitarist is open to swapping speakers for a gig to see how you get on with a DXR10.

 

 

I've not tried a Headrush, but I did a couple of gigs with a QSC CP8 (1x8") as my bass monitor (with full PA support).  It was loud enough - I could tell what notes I was playing - but it didn't have much depth tonewise.  Sold it in the end.

 

What do you have before the QSC? I presume some kind of modeller or pre-amp?

[jrixn1]

4 minutes ago, karlbbb said:

 

What do you have before the QSC? I presume some kind of modeller or pre-amp?

 

EBS MicroBass 3.