Interesting FRFR story..

[Greg Edwards69]

54 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

 

I'd see if your guitarist is open to swapping speakers for a gig to see how you get on with a DXR10.

 

I've not tried a Headrush, but I did a couple of gigs with a QSC CP8 (1x8") as my bass monitor (with full PA support).  It was loud enough - I could tell what notes I was playing - but it didn't have much depth tonewise.  Sold it in the end.

It's an option.  They both took turns playing bass a rehearsal recently when I couldn't make it due to back issues. They said the bass sounded great through it.  I need to hear it for myself.  I'm just concerned it may not be enough if it needs to fill the room without FOH support - much like my baby headrush.

The little headrush 108 is surprisingly competent with bass. I don't like too much sub bass in my sound and I always have the hpf engaged in the helix and tune it to the room. Sometimes up as far as 80hz if it's too boomy.  The headrush 108 seems to behave better in a smaller rooms such as a rehearsal studio, probably because it inherently rolls the low frequencies off similarly to using a judicious hpf. It would likely be fine with great FOH support. I just don't know how much my bigger 112 is supporting the low end of our sub-less FOH system and whether switching to a smaller speaker will ultimately make any difference to the FOH sound.

 

It would be great to replace both speakers with something inbetween. Although physics tend to indicate that the perfect trifecta of weight, volume and low end extension doesn't exist.

TL:DR We need to do a "technical rehearsal"!

[Al Krow]

On 18/10/2021 at 23:53, Phil Starr said:

Hi Al, our band are going through this slowly and each stage is an improvement. When I joined them I went to see them a couple of times and nearly didn't join them because their sound was so unstable. loved their set and they are really good people in every way but I'd just left a much tighter band and didn't want to go backwards. 

 

The starting set up before I joinedwas with no monitors but the singer used in ears just to shut out the on stage noise and hear herself sing. I can't pitch without monitors so first gig i took my ART310's along. They are fabulous monitors, no sonic nasties so you can push them really hard before feedback. Having good on-stage monitoring really tightened the band up. So at this point we had pretty much your phase B. Only with QSC's as mains but retaining back line, turned down however with bass/guitar going through the PA as well but turned down.

 

Our next step was to purchase a new mixer RCF M18. this has 6auxes and separate mixing with phone apps. First gig I used the monitors with separate mIxes then the drummer and I went in ears. I just used the XLR out from the floor monitor to feed the IEM's so I could pull them out if there was a hitch, there wasn't. The drummer now has IEM's with ZS10's and a Behringer P2 and the guitarist has bought the ZS10's too. I'm expecting the floor monitors to go soon as we get used to it.

 

I haven't had to explain anything, each step was a small one and each one was a noticeable improvement. No arguments we just tried things and they worked. Change is scary for a working band, it might lead to something better but we are all terrified of gear going wrong and having to play through it badly in front of an audience. for band members who don't understand tech it is doubly terrifying. Honestly I think you would benefit is lots of ways in separating your on stage and out front sound and a step by step approach does take people with you.

 

Getting the in ears right is the revelation, you can hear everything like you can in the studio recordings, even better you can turn it all down to a level where your ears don't ring. You even have a volume control for the guitarist and the drummer  All that depends upon the mixer with Auxes for all the band members. The old mixers that could do that weren't really portable and cost more than most bands PA, digital has changed all that. 

 

Oh one last thing, I use the RCF 310's with my duo for everything including bass. Put those babies on poles and the bass sound will be the best you've ever heard outside of a full pro touring rig. they aren't really designed to be flat response on the floor put them at ear level and let them sing, try it in the rehearsal room, I promise bass heaven

Phil, picking up on your last para, I'm guessing that the 310As are fine with your duo, but would probably struggle to provide decent bass for a 5 piece rock band? And that either our RCF powered sub or continuing to use my amp and BF cab would be required in such circumstances? 

[Phil Starr]

I've used a single 310 at rehearsal and wouldn't hesitate to use it as a stage monitor at a gig. They are a bit bass heavy when not on poles so as floor monitors for bass you'd roll the bass back a bit which would give you decent headroom. A pair of them would certainly do as bass speakers but I don't think I would use them as full PA including bass and kick without subs.

 

So much of this depends upon what gigs you are doing and what your ambitions are. We are your typical pub covers band with a few functions where we normally are expected to be at a comfortable volume. the few bigger (small festivals) gigs we have done have had hired in PA's. We've never needed anything our QSC12's can't cope with. I've got subs and other tops but never needed them with this band. I've looked at RCF 735's but I'm not sure I can justify them, or want to lift them onto poles.

 

I'd say your next step ought to be looking at a new mixer, I paid £335 for my RCF M18 and I'll get something for the Yamaha MG it replaced so the upgrade is only going to cost me less than £200. The Behringer isn't much more. That gives you benefits straight away as the mixer is just easier to set up and has so many more options for improving your stage sounds. It's simple then to move each band member to IEM's as you already have 6 or more Aux outs ready to go. Once a few of you have gone that way you can then move to putting more through the PA and upgrade your speakers then. If in ears didn't work for you a second set of ART 310's as individual stage monitors would let you go in that direction for a lot less than bigger better PA speakers. £10's with a sub are already quite a capable set up.

 

Lot's to think about eh? 

[dave_bass5]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Phil, picking up on your last para, I'm guessing that the 310As are fine with your duo, but would probably struggle to provide decent bass for a 5 piece rock band? And that either our RCF powered sub or continuing to use my amp and BF cab would be required in such circumstances? 

Don’t forget, you will effectively have 2x10, and sub,  which should be fine for bass in a pub or small venue IMO. 
Easiest way to test to would be to try it at a sound check, while also having your rig set up but turned down or off while you try it. 

[dave_bass5]

Although thinking about that, I’d imagine the whole band would need to go through them as well, other wise it might sound a bit odd. 

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

A pair of them would certainly do as bass speakers but I don't think I would use them as full PA including bass and kick without subs.

 

Thanks Phil for the whole post; your sentence above very much chimes with where me and the drummer are also landing (for some reason we've ended up being the techy members of the band!) and it will let me progress the cost/weight/benefit analysis of upgrading our relatively simple but actually pretty effective PA set-up. This has all  been triggered by one of the vocalists wanting to use a wired IEM at our gig on Saturday night, and then me thinking "what if?..." You know how it is! 

I've got a sneaky suspicion, however that "if ain't broke..." will end up being the very sensible answer for us, but it's certainly been useful to kick the tyres with folk on this thread - many thanks all.

[Greg Edwards69]

On 20/10/2021 at 15:59, Phil Starr said:

So much of this depends upon what gigs you are doing and what your ambitions are. We are your typical pub covers band with a few functions where we normally are expected to be at a comfortable volume. the few bigger (small festivals) gigs we have done have had hired in PA's. We've never needed anything our QSC12's can't cope with. I've got subs and other tops but never needed them with this band. I've looked at RCF 735's but I'm not sure I can justify them, or want to lift them onto poles.

That's good to know. As another typical pub covers band (plus functions) we're using just a pair of DXR12 speakers, that I guess perform similarly to your QSC12's without a sub

It's only fairly recently that we've been putting the guitars and bass through the PA, after years of me badgering the rest of the band about it.  The PA actually belongs to one of the guitarist's dad, who is our unofficial seventh member. So his job has been fairly easy so far only having to mange vocals and telling us to turn up or down!.  He's getting on a bit now and has had some illness so we've been running the sound ourselves with the DXR12's and a yamaha MGP16x mixer, with a fair bit of knowledge between us and getting decent results (my input is generally hpf everything apart from bass and bass drum!).

 

He does also have a Behringer x-air mixer. But we really need to spend a fair amount of time with that in a large rehearsal room before going out with it, plus it'll be more flexible if we go in ears. I love the guy, but bless him, his knowledge it a little behind the times and I have to remind him to low pass certain channels to avoid feedback and rumble on the mics!  If we can do this ourselves with an ipad it'll make life a lot easier and he can retire gracefully.

 

If we can ditch the backline as well and go IEM using just the DXR12's as FOH without a sub, then even better.  Then we only have to invest in a decent IEM system.  The Behringer P2 will work in a pinch (afore mentioned guitarist has one and sounded great) but I'd rather go wireless.

I need to do a test at our next soundcheck, and turn my frfr off once we've got everything mixed to see if it's supporting the FOH or not.  This, I feel will be the turning point.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Greg Edwards69

[Bridgehouse]

Nice to see this lil thread of mine is still going 

 

Took the QSC over to a Jam last week and shoved the Helix Floor into it. There were at least 4 or 5 loud guitar amps to compete with, and it did a sterling job. 

[gafbass02]

I just found a video I thought might be handy here. I think our drummer filmed himself with his phone or something, but it’s happened to have caught a pretty good impression of what it’s like from an on stage perspective using a single Headrush 112, you can even see the cab for context. Yes it’s Mr Brightside at a lively festival, but just ignore that 😂🫣😴 Thought it might be handy for those wondering. Was certainly easier than lugging a full rig through the crowd. Headphones will get you pretty close to what I hear  

 And here’s the FOH perspective. 

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by gafbass02

[BassmanPaul]

Just wanted to say that I enjoyed your bass playing and I thought your drummer was excellent!!  

[gafbass02]

thank you  That's really kind of you.

[tuss]

Really interesting thread and a lot of info to wade through. At my last gig I borrowed a Yamaha DXR10, and ran my HX stomp and pedalboard through it and had a general mix of the band also, and no backline. This is the first time I'd ever tried running without backline and enjoyed the experience, although not sure DXR10 had enough bass response for my liking, so will look into a DXR12 or QSC 10.2 or 12.2. Just wondered if anyone else is using an FRFR for the same purpose of monitoring bass and rest of band? Most of our gigs these days PA is provided and our guitarist is running a Kemper with DXR10, so not overly loud on stage.

[Frank Blank]

35 minutes ago, tuss said:

Really interesting thread and a lot of info to wade through. At my last gig I borrowed a Yamaha DXR10, and ran my HX stomp and pedalboard through it and had a general mix of the band also, and no backline. This is the first time I'd ever tried running without backline and enjoyed the experience, although not sure DXR10 had enough bass response for my liking, so will look into a DXR12 or QSC 10.2 or 12.2. Just wondered if anyone else is using an FRFR for the same purpose of monitoring bass and rest of band? Most of our gigs these days PA is provided and our guitarist is running a Kemper with DXR10, so not overly loud on stage.

 

Thanks to this thread I now run...

 

Bass > Grace Design Alix > Effectrode PC-2A Compressor > QSC K12.2 

 

...if there is PA support I use the QSC as a monitor and run a line out of it to the desk or if there's no PA I just use it as backline. I used to go...

 

Bass > HX Stomp > QSC K12.2

 

...also a great option.

[tuss]

1 hour ago, Frank Blank said:

 

Thanks to this thread I now run...

 

Bass > Grace Design Alix > Effectrode PC-2A Compressor > QSC K12.2 

 

...if there is PA support I use the QSC as a monitor and run a line out of it to the desk or if there's no PA I just use it as backline. I used to go...

 

Bass > HX Stomp > QSC K12.2

 

...also a great option.

 

 

I'm thinking the QSC K12.2 would be my favoured option

[Frank Blank]

6 minutes ago, tuss said:

I'm thinking the QSC K12.2 would be my favoured option

 

Where are you based? You are welcome to try mine out.

[tuss]

1 hour ago, Frank Blank said:

 

Where are you based? You are welcome to try mine out.

That's very kind of you, I'm based in Norfolk

[Jack]

Just be wary of making sure that the qsc stay updated, keep on top of the firmware! That aside, they're fantastic. Either as a 'bass amp' backline or just as a wedge. 

[Frank Blank]

7 hours ago, tuss said:

That's very kind of you, I'm based in Norfolk

Ah, I'm in Southend, you are still welcome of course!

[Baloney Balderdash]

Jaco didn't need FRFR.

[Downunderwonder]

44 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Jaco didn't need FRFR.

Jaco couldn't spell FRFR!

[Chienmortbb]

35 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

Jaco couldn't spell FRFR!

 

35 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

Jaco couldn't spell FRFR!

No but he could play it!

[BreadBin]

2 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Jaco couldn't spell FRFR!

Wasn't he the doctor in The Man With Two Brains?

[dave_bass5]

7 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Jaco didn't need FRFR.

Maybe he should have used one 😎

[Jack]

7 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Jaco didn't need FRFR.

Fifth, root, fifth, root?

[dave_bass5]

4 minutes ago, Jack said:

Fifth, root, fifth, root?

Thats Adam, not Jaco 😂