Interesting FRFR story..

[stingrayPete1977]

Anything with a horn section loud gets right into the centre of your brain too doesn't it,  the sound crew were probably deaf from years of doing the sound for rock and roll bands with dinosaur amps

[EBS_freak]

Hear me roar!!!

 

[EBS_freak]

Just kidding. Everybody can clearly see that the above amp is not gig ready.

No.

Thats why we need this -

Bloody love that tagline! Couldn't be any more appropriate, right?

[Kevin Dean]

I've tried this but I just can't seem to get the sound I like that I do with my rig behind me .

[EBS_freak]

8 minutes ago, Kevin Dean said:

I've tried this but I just can't seem to get the sound I like that I do with my rig behind me .

"Tried this"

What is it that you've tried? Using what?

Edited December 1, 2017 by EBS_freak

[Bridgehouse]

37 minutes ago, Kevin Dean said:

I've tried this but I just can't seem to get the sound I like that I do with my rig behind me .

How big is your rig? What is it? How do you record with it? What do you do in smaller venues? What do you do in much larger venues - do you mic the cab?

[EBS_freak]

5 minutes ago, Bridgehouse said:

How big is your rig? What is it? How do you record with it? What do you do in smaller venues? What do you do in much larger venues - do you mic the cab?

Shh! He's tried it - and it's rubbish. The justification is there in black and white!

[Bridgehouse]

Just now, EBS_freak said:

Shh! He's tried it - and it's rubbish. The justification is there in black and white!

I'm quite enjoying the fact that I started a thread about some stuff I bought, saying how much I enjoyed using it - but people still keep coming back to tell me it's not as good as the stuff that won't fit on the stage or in the car, or gives me back pain etc..

Clearly I have no idea what I'm doing - which to be fair may be true. 

[EBS_freak]

3 minutes ago, Bridgehouse said:

I'm quite enjoying the fact that I started a thread about some stuff I bought, saying how much I enjoyed using it - but people still keep coming back to tell me it's not as good as the stuff that won't fit on the stage or in the car, or gives me back pain etc..

Clearly I have no idea what I'm doing - which to be fair may be true. 

Stick with it. People are scared of change... or haven't given it a fair crack of the whip to even comment. The "Oh yeah, I've tried IEMs and they're poo" (with freebie phone earphones), is a particular bug bear of mine.

Guess what? Yeah, I have intimate experience of traditional back line too. I took a 10w 1x8 amp on a gig too. Awful. I couldn't hear it, there was no bass response. Anybody who would take a bass amp to a gig is an absolute idiot.

Funny, isn't it?

PS for the record, I used to gig with traditional backline. My last rig I bought was an EBS, with 4 2x10 cabs (hey portable 810 rig - how rock n roll!). I would sell them, if they were worth anything!

[Bridgehouse]

3 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Stick with it. People are scared of change... or haven't given it a fair crack of the whip to even comment. The "Oh yeah, I've tried IEMs and they're poo" (with freebie phone earphones), is a particular bug bear of mine.

Guess what? Yeah, I have intimate experience of traditional back line too. I took a 10w 1x8 amp on a gig too. Awful. I couldn't hear it, there was no bass response. Anybody who would take a bass amp to a gig is an absolute idiot.

Funny, isn't it?

PS for the record, I used to gig with traditional backline. My last rig I bought was an EBS, with 4 2x10 cabs (hey portable 810 rig - how rock n roll!). I would sell them, if they were worth anything!

Thing is, I have an EICH T1000 and a Vanderkley  210 which is pretty much enough for any gig situation. 

I have also just started speccing a small 15w valve head for recording. The FRFR is just another tool, another option, but one that will get used a lot - space and weight dictates that it will.

[BigRedX]

EBS_freak, having recently upgraded my BassPod XT to a Helix, I'm seriously looking at this route and ditching all my "old school" amps and cabs.

TBH from my perspective a good amp is just a device with some EQ and a baked-in sound that I find pleasing plus some extra circuitry to make my bass sound loud. In fact for most of the 90s I ran a Peavey Bassfex straight into a power amp and had a great sound, so "realism" of the amp/cab sims is of minimal interest to me, having lots of tonal options (which the Helix most definitely does) is far more important. Even when I was using the BassPod my preferred starting point was the SuDub preset which isn't even based on an amp!

So to get to the point, until I'm at the stage where IEM makes practical sense for the bands I am currently playing what would you recommend for FRFR speaker for my bass? Is the RCF worth the extra money, or will one of the QSC K.2 Series be perfectly adequate? Your input would be welcomed. 

[EBS_freak]

The RCFs 735 and 745s are great due to the quality of the speakers that they use in them... (there's literally nothing else out there at that price point, especially in lightweight non wood cabs) The only perceivable downside, is that they don't look like a bass cab... I don't know if that's important to you or not. I know a couple of people who have made faux cabs (just a frame, with a vintage cloth over the front and black tolex and the hardware) that has the PA speakers inside. One guy I know lies the cab down inside so it's in the wedge position... so in a traditional setup with the amp behind you, at least you have a better chance of hearing everything when it's pointing at your head!

There's loads of ways that you could use these setups... as I have hinted to earlier, I favour the FOH doing all the work... but a decent PA cab could serve as both an excellent wedge for pointing back to you (with the mix of all the band in it also)... or excellent backline when it's behind you and you need to rely on just that to get your bass heard.

Both cabs mentioned are readily available at places that deal with PA... for example, if you can get yourself to a PMT, you'll be able to play through the Helix and both the RCF and QSC offerings... and see what you think, after all, it's you that the setup has to convince!

[Kevin Dean]

7 hours ago, Bridgehouse said:

How big is your rig? What is it? How do you record with it? What do you do in smaller venues? What do you do in much larger venues - do you mic the cab?

I use  a Shuker 36" bass fitted with a midi pick up going through a Roland GR55 , Ashdown jjb powering 2 x Ashdown 12" RM cabs loaded with Sica drivers( 30lbs per cab) .  For large venues with a decent PA I  DI post eq & mic  . 

[LukeFRC]

Here's a question:

When I was looking a few years back at using a PA speaker as a bass amp and cab there was only one downside at the time...
In PA world the bottom end would normally be crossed over to a sub, so they weren't designed to have as much lows as a more specialist bass cab does. 
This matters very little if you've got PA support (actually a good thing) but meant that the way they were designed wasn't nesserally a direct like for like substitution for a bass cab.... 
Is this still the case with the RCF and QSC speakers you're talking about, and which ones, (I guess the bigger ones are fine.)

[EBS_freak]

17 minutes ago, Kevin Dean said:

I use  a Shuker 36" bass fitted with a midi pick up going through a Roland GR55 , Ashdown jjb powering 2 x Ashdown 12" RM cabs loaded with Sica drivers( 30lbs per cab) .  For large venues with a decent PA I  DI post eq & mic  . 

So what is it that you tried as an alternative?

[EBS_freak]

17 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

Here's a question:

When I was looking a few years back at using a PA speaker as a bass amp and cab there was only one downside at the time...
In PA world the bottom end would normally be crossed over to a sub, so they weren't designed to have as much lows as a more specialist bass cab does. 
This matters very little if you've got PA support (actually a good thing) but meant that the way they were designed wasn't nesserally a direct like for like substitution for a bass cab.... 
Is this still the case with the RCF and QSC speakers you're talking about, and which ones, (I guess the bigger ones are fine.)

Can't talk for the QSC but the 735 and 745 go low and loud... more so than most tops and can be used is most small venues without a sub. This is the point that I am making about the speakers in these cabs. You just don't get these large voice coiled speakers in abs cabs.

[Kevin Dean]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

So what is it that you tried as an alternative?

I  tried just DI straight into various PA systems & just using a monitor , It was Ok  but I liked having the punch behind me , & for most gigs I was carrying in PA subs that I didn't really need if I used my rig , even using it as a monitor I'm only carrying one extra speaker & getting a sound I'm a lot happier with .

[EBS_freak]

But what sort of monitors were you using? Like above with Metallica, the right monitors would be punching your teeth out. If you were using knackered old cheapo monitors (let's face it, most venues monitors are crap and in terms of personal PA, monitors are always where the savings are made) then of course you won't be getting the result you are looking for.

Similarly, if you were to replace your rig with a meaty FRFR, there is zero reason why you couldn't get the exact same experience with one of those behind you as your existing rig.

With all due respect, it sounds like you are in the camp of, "yeah, tried that... rubbish" when you haven't actually tried what this thread is about with gear that is actually up to the job. For example, you talk about carrying extra subs (because everybody just goes out and throws extra subs into the mix just like that when you change your backline) but if you were using a decent FRFR setup, you'd realise that a lot will actually go lower and louder than bass cabs... so if you don't need subs when using your bass cab, then you don't need subs with your FRFR.

Please don't think that I'm having a go at you - I'm just standing up for the technology - and I just don't think that you've given it a fair trial and I don't think it's fair to run it down as a solution that others may be interested in based on your, what appears to be, limited experience.

Edited December 2, 2017 by EBS_freak

[LukeFRC]

9 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Can't talk for the QSC but the 735 and 745 go low and loud... more so than most tops and can be used is most small venues without a sub. This is the point that I am making about the speakers in these cabs. You just don't get these large voice coiled speakers in abs cabs.

So while I completely agree with you and are tempted to go buy a good PA speaker I think it's worth pointing out that it has to be a specific set of speakers on the market that will go low enough and probably have DSP and some thing protecting the speakers excursion in the lows. 

If you read this thread and picked up any PA can it might not be designed to excel at the job you are asking it to do like the RCF you own are able too

[EBS_freak]

35 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

So while I completely agree with you and are tempted to go buy a good PA speaker I think it's worth pointing out that it has to be a specific set of speakers on the market that will go low enough and probably have DSP and some thing protecting the speakers excursion in the lows. 

If you read this thread and picked up any PA can it might not be designed to excel at the job you are asking it to do like the RCF you own are able too

That is a good point. As soon as you start going north of 500 quid, you'll see most speakers SPL jump from being 120 something to 130 something. 130 something is what you want for something loud. In terms of how low you go, well the frequency figure at -3dB figure is what you want. Remember though - as stated earlier in the thread, flooding the stage or room with those B and E string fundamentals are probably not what you want anyway - as your mix will soon become awash with subby mush. In reality, only in the biggest of rooms (which are either pretty dead or full of people) can you get away with large amount of sub bass.

In short, if you spend the equivalent amount of money on a PA cab as you would a decent 2x12, you are going to more than OK. The RCFs are by far not the only cab that are suitable for the job. I know a couple of guys that are using DXR15s for example, to do similar. Don't just buy blind or take my word for it - these things are far easier to find than boutique bass cabs. Give it a go.

[stingrayPete1977]

47 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

So while I completely agree with you and are tempted to go buy a good PA speaker I think it's worth pointing out that it has to be a specific set of speakers on the market that will go low enough and probably have DSP and some thing protecting the speakers excursion in the lows. 

If you read this thread and picked up any PA can it might not be designed to excel at the job you are asking it to do like the RCF you own are able too

The rcf and qsc have been talked about throughout the thread, if someone tries putting 1400 watts through a sound lab from Maplins expecting it to replace an  Ampeg stack they'll have a nasty surprise. 

I don't really see the difference, a rubbish bass speaker could be replaced with a rubbish PA speaker with similar outcomes, most people interested in frfr are already using a nice bass rig so they need to expect to require a nice P.A. speaker. 

Edited December 2, 2017 by stingrayPete1977

[Bridgehouse]

1 hour ago, LukeFRC said:

So while I completely agree with you and are tempted to go buy a good PA speaker I think it's worth pointing out that it has to be a specific set of speakers on the market that will go low enough and probably have DSP and some thing protecting the speakers excursion in the lows. 

If you read this thread and picked up any PA can it might not be designed to excel at the job you are asking it to do like the RCF you own are able too

And in fact I started this thread to say that I went to a shop with the intention of buying one option, but after trying a few chose a different one which had many of the characteristics you mention above. 

My whole point originally was to say that received wisdom (Yam DXR) was not in fact the best on (my) test 

[EBS_freak]

Exactly - the one that sounds best to your ears is the one for you!

[Bridgehouse]

Took it out to a jam session today. 

@&£!*^ me its loud. 

No parpy noises on the low notes. Very clear and loads of projection. 

Cor.

[EBS_freak]

24 minutes ago, Bridgehouse said:

Took it out to a jam session today. 

@&£!*^ me its loud. 

No parpy noises on the low notes. Very clear and loads of projection. 

Cor.

Sounds like a complete fail then.