No real love for Jaco

[dyerseve]

10 minutes ago, Bluewine said:

It's just the way it works.

For example, no Sly& The Family Stone, then no EW&F, no Ohio Players, No Graham Central Station.

Blue

Umm no. Just because someone doesn't do something doesn't mean that someone else wouldn't have come along at a slightly later date and done the same thing.

[Bluewine]

If you don't like Jaco or to young to understand his place in history that's fine 

However your going to have a hard time convincing me his legacy isn't well deserved.

It doesn't really matter who or what we like or dislike.

Blue

[Bluewine]

4 minutes ago, dyerseve said:

Umm no. Just because someone doesn't do something doesn't mean that someone else wouldn't have come along at a slightly later date and done the same thing.

For me, I'm sticking with;

"Umm yes"

Blue

[Bluewine]

10 minutes ago, louisthebass said:

He was an innovative player for his time.

I'm not a huge Jaco fan. However, I'd have to say Jaco's style of bass playing is currently innovative.

Blue

[4000]

12 minutes ago, louisthebass said:

Agreed. JP will always divide opinion on BC - this is a topic which has cropped up a few times in my time on here, and probably will again at some point.

He was an innovative player for his time, and he continues to influence some bass players to this day. Would someone else have taken his mantle if he hadn't been around? Stanley Clarke was coming to the fore around the same time so if Jaco had never existed, I suspect we would be talking about Stanley Clarke instead.

 

I always find this odd. I started playing in 1980, and in my part of the world (North West) around that time, pretty much everyone I knew was talking about Stanley; I think I only knew 1 person - a non-musician - who was more than vaguely aware of Jaco. That only really changed when Jaco died. Maybe it was different elsewhere.

FWIW, I bought Jaco's debut and Stanley's 'brown' album at exactly the same time (my first real exposure to either), or rather I bought Jaco's and my dad bought me Stanley's as he'd 'heard he was good'. I was much less interested in hearing Stanley, but after listening to both albums back to back that afternoon, Jaco's left me pretty cold and Stanley's blew my head off, and remains one of my all-time favourite albums. But that was me, no reflection on how anyone else should think or react. At the end of the day an artist either connects with the individual or they don't, and it shouldn't reflect in any way their validity as an artist. 

 

[Bluewine]

Whether we like Jaco or not. Most of us don't have a fraction of his vision, ability or skill.

Blue

[BassTractor]

1 hour ago, Bluewine said:

Whether we like Jaco or not. Most of us don't have a fraction of his vision, ability or skill.

Blue

I do! I have a fraction of his vision or of his ability or of his skill!

[drTStingray]

5 minutes ago, BassTractor said:

I do! I have a fraction of his vision or of his ability or of his skill!

Ha ha - I think you're doing yourself a dis-service there, Bass Tractor!

It's worth thinking about who was influential when Jaco was really popular - this was probably from 1976-80 as far as Weather Report are concerned.

During that time period, Stanley Clarke (with Return to Forever and solo), Bernard Edwards, Louis Johnson, Anthony Jackson, and a steam of others produced memorable bass work. The point is that whole era of music contained bass playing which influenced bass players who followed like Mark King, Pino Palladino and others - would Norman Watt-Roy have played that line on Hit Me With Your Rythmn Stick without having seen Jaco live - probably not but he would still have done a myriad of others without (eg What A Waste). I think his direct influence is grossly overstated but he may have popularised Fretless bass and maybe increased use of techniques like harmonics incorporated into bass lines. So having top ten singles involving The Crusaders (a very prolific jazz/R and B band), free form sax solos (Ian Dury) or vocoder and jazz funk from a jazz act (Herbie Hancock) was the norm for a few years. Jaco is only a relatively small part. 

[BassTractor]

Great post, Dr. T-without-the-women-but-with-a-Ray. I was trying to write a post building on yours, but saw in time I was only repeating what you'd already said. 

 

32 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

Ha ha - I think you're doing yourself a dis-service there, Bass Tractor!

Hehe. I don't see how I could top what I've already done before. 

[dyerseve]

42 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

Ha ha - I think you're doing yourself a dis-service there, Bass Tractor!

It's worth thinking about who was influential when Jaco was really popular - this was probably from 1976-80 as far as Weather Report are concerned.

During that time period, Stanley Clarke (with Return to Forever and solo), Bernard Edwards, Louis Johnson, Anthony Jackson, and a steam of others produced memorable bass work. The point is that whole era of music contained bass playing which influenced bass players who followed like Mark King, Pino Palladino and others - would Norman Watt-Roy have played that line on Hit Me With Your Rythmn Stick without having seen Jaco live - probably not but he would still have done a myriad of others without (eg What A Waste). I think his direct influence is grossly overstated but he may have popularised Fretless bass and maybe increased use of techniques like harmonics incorporated into bass lines. So having top ten singles involving The Crusaders (a very prolific jazz/R and B band), free form sax solos (Ian Dury) or vocoder and jazz funk from a jazz act (Herbie Hancock) was the norm for a few years. Jaco is only a relatively small part. 

And just for Blues reference it's worth him noting that Marcus was already active on the scene before Jaco even started with Weather Report. 

Not that i want to let facts get in the way of his sweeping statements...

[Bluewine]

12 minutes ago, dyerseve said:

And just for Blues reference it's worth him noting that Marcus was already active on the scene before Jaco even started with Weather Report. 

Not that i want to let facts get in the way of his sweeping statements...

Sorry, I have a difference of opinion.

"No Jaco, no Marcus."

Without Jaco I doubt guys like Markus would have risen to prominence.

I'm not sure what "active on the scene " means.

Blue

[dyerseve]

10 minutes ago, Bluewine said:

Sorry, I have a difference of opinion.

"No Jaco, no Marcus."

Without Jaco I doubt guys like Markus would have risen to prominence.

I'm not sure what "active on the scene " means.

Blue

Yeah but you are making a ridiculously sweeping and vague statement. 

Marcus was already a session player before Jaco was in Weather Report so Marcus WAS before Jaco HAD reached his most influential.

By all means have a different opinion but be prepared to back it up with logic and or facts

[mikel]

5 hours ago, Ceebass said:

I am absolutely in favour of 'like the music you like', but I really don't get this! Why shouldn't a player utilise the full scope of their instrument if it serves to realise their musical/compositional/expressive goals? 

No reason at all, but he would have found it much easier with 6 strings, of a lighter gauge, and a shorter scale instrument, like a guitar for instance.  Anyway, it was only my opinion, its not a pop at him or you.

[drTStingray]

33 minutes ago, BassTractor said:

Great post, Dr. T-without-the-women-but-with-a-Ray.

As you well know, the Bongo is the bass with which to impress women - though the Ray does pretty well - especially in Fretless form.....eye popping carpet here as well. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by drTStingray

[lowdown]

41 minutes ago, dyerseve said:

And just for Blues reference it's worth him noting that Marcus was already active on the scene before Jaco even started with Weather Report. 

Not that i want to let facts get in the way of his sweeping statements...

I thought they both arrived about the same time? I know Marcus started doing low key (jingles & tv) sessions in 75/76 and Jaco with Weather Report about the same time, along with his solo album. Of course he had been recording with Pat Metheny a couple of years earlier. Marcus really started doing all the big stuff at the later part of the 70’s. No doubt though that Marcus already had his own style underway when Jaco joined Weather Report.  

I remember listening to Jaco before Marcus. The first album recordings of Marcus I heard were with Lenny White (1977/78). I should think that there were other ‘name’ recordings before that though (Hubert & Ronnie Laws spring to mind).

 I love both Jaco and Marcus and don’t really hear any similarities between the two. I have heard Marcus do some pretty decent Bebop solos, so not all slap and tickle. He played a lovely melodic, Fretless solo on Dave Grusin’s version of ‘Friends & Strangers’ in the late 70’s.

Not that any of the above matters, or is correct of course. Just a friendly pub type chat about Bassists.

Carry on.

 

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by lowdown

[dyerseve]

10 minutes ago, lowdown said:

I thought they both arrived about the same time? I know Marcus started doing low key (jingles & tv) sessions in 75/76 and Jaco with Weather Report about the same time, along with his solo album. Of course he had been recording with Pat Metheny a couple of years earlier. Marcus really started doing all the big stuff at the later part of the 70’s. No doubt though that Marcus already had his own style underway when Jaco joined Weather Report.  

I remember listening to Jaco before Marcus. The first album recordings of Marcus I heard were with Lenny White (1977/78). I should think that there were other ‘name’ recordings before that though (Hubert & Ronnie Laws spring to mind).

 I love both Jaco and Marcus and don’t really hear any similarities between the two. I have heard Marcus do some pretty decent Bebop solos, so not all slap and tickle. He played a lovely melodic, Fretless solo on Dave Grusin’s version of ‘Friends & Strangers’ in the late 70’s.

Not that any of the above matters, or is correct of course. Just a friendly pub type chat about Bassists.

Carry on.

 

 

Thanks Lowdown that's very interesting to read. I am absolutely keen to hear stuff like this as there isn't always reliable info that's readily available when researching these artists early in their careers.

For sure Marcus is best known for his slap style but really has so much more to offer than that not just in his fretless and fingerstyle grooves but as a writer and composer. Not to mention his sax playing. 

Similarly I don't hear any Jaco in his playing but I'm sure Jaco did have at least some influence on Marcus as I'm sure he covers Teen Town on one of his solo albums...

[Bluewine]

Not that it matters, but I didn't here about Marcus until years after Jaco.

Weather Report was pretty big.

Blue

[dmccombe7]

Think i heard about Stanley Clarke and Jaco round about the same time must have been mid to late 70's and it was only because i was playing bass and a bass mate told me about Jaco. I had heard of Clarke thru music Mags tho.

Think Jaco and Marcus have influenced so many people over the years. Can't say i would rush out and buy their albums but i do like to listen to them on occasion just to impress me and make me realise i need to work a bit harder at playing.

Dave

[White Cloud]

Without taking anything away from Jaco (I am a big fan and adore his Weather Report era) I actually do find it very annoying that nobody ever wants to mention the contribution that the Welshman Percy Jones made during the same era with his fretless bass playing. 

His playing on Brian Eno's "Another green world" from 1975 is astounding, groundbreaking and it is blatantly obvious that he had a big impact upon the subsequent work of Mick Karn. In many ways his playing was in many ways more expansive and exploratory than Jaco ever was. Jaco stumbled across Percy in person once in the states (what are the odds?) and overheard him practicing...and was apparently completely blown away by his playing

I remember the affect Percy's astounding bass work on the Brand X LP "Masques" had on me as a young player. As a British bassist he is criminally underrated in my opinion.

[lowdown]

1 hour ago, dyerseve said:

Similarly I don't hear any Jaco in his playing but I'm sure Jaco did have at least some influence on Marcus as I'm sure he covers Teen Town on one of his solo albums...

Absolutely. Any of those top Bassists from that era always give a nod to Jaco about being influenced in some way.

I suppose, slightly contradicting myself, Marcus did go for a Jaco Fretless tone back then.

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by lowdown

[lowdown]

9 minutes ago, White Cloud said:

Without taking anything away from Jaco (I am a big fan and adore his Weather Report era) I actually do find it very annoying that nobody ever wants to mention the contribution that the Welshman Percy Jones made during the same era with his fretless bass playing. 

I remember the affect Percy's astounding bass work on the Brand X LP "Masques" had on me as a young player. As a British bassist he is criminally underrated in my opinion.

Yeah, I agree with that as well.

[BassTractor]

1 hour ago, drTStingray said:

As you well know, the Bongo is the bass with which to impress women - though the Ray does pretty well - especially in Fretless form

Thanks for the eye popping stuff! Yes, I know, and your description is so creepily true that it resembles science: a Bongo, any Bongo, and a fretless Ray in any colour is all one needs - though I myself choose a Dargie Delight Bongo and a black fretless Ray with rosewood board. I often wonder what Jaco, talented as he was, could've achieved had he had a real Bongo in his hands! 

 

Unimportant but as BTW for the uninitiated: Robert Altman made a film that was much better than its renommé, with a creepily correct description of how wealthy ladies in Dallas, TX function:

[drTStingray]

I based the nomdeplume on this whilst whilst watching it at home and noodling on a Stingray - slightly less or more cool dependent on your viewpoint - back on topic - Marcus must have been very young in 1975?

its worth listening to Jaco's predecessor Alphobso Johnson - although more funk than Jaco I think you can hear a sort of embryonic Jaco sound at times. The number of influential bass players from the late 70s era is really mind boggling - including the Philly players, Rocco, Abraham Laboriel. Good as Jaco was I think he's only one part of the jigsaw - Percy Jones is also a very good call and a Wal Fretless player also. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by drTStingray

[Chris2112]

On 08/12/2017 at 17:23, Bluewine said:

I'm not a huge Jaco fan. However, I'd have to say Jaco's style of bass playing is currently innovative.

Blue

 

 

How is Jaco's playing currently innovative? His style was very heavily copied quite shortly after he arrived on the scene. There are plenty of players out there today, established names in their own right, who were disparaged as Jaco-clones in their early years. The ones who remained active forged their own identity, in time. That said, Jaco created such a distinctive voice at the time that his trademarks popped up all over the place. 

If we bass players are collectively guilty of anything, it's that we tend to overstate Jaco's role in terms of how bass playing changed at the time. Jaco was a great talent but he was merely at the forefront of a wave of innovative bassists, he didn't singlehandedly change everything. 

[Bluewine]

4 minutes ago, Chris2112 said:

 

 

How is Jaco's playing currently innovative? 

Because it's 40 years after the fact and we're still debating it.

He was so ahead if his time, I'm not sure we've caught up to him yet.IMO

Blue