Passion vs Ability

[steve-bbb]

13 hours ago, Cato said:

In many cases I reckon passion beats ability.

There are a lot of very successful bands who, when they started out at least, were not exactly virtuosos.

Edit:

That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.

likewise there are equally as many talentless charisma-less acts/artists out there who owe their fame and fortune merely to the casting couch networking the right people

[radiophonic]

7 minutes ago, steve-bbb said:

likewise there are equally as many talentless charisma-less acts/artists out there who owe their fame and fortune merely to the casting couch networking the right people

Just as long as we are clear that 'casting couch' refers to being the victim of sexual harassment or sexual assault.

There is a lot of luck involved though. Playing the right music at the right time or one song being picked up by a TV show or a DJ or someone remixing you and everyone hearing it when they are on their hols. It's pretty random really. I recall when (the excellent) Aereogramme split up they referred to an 'almost telepathic ability to avoid the zeitgeist'.

[cheddatom]

7 hours ago, Bluewine said:

Folks, lots of good comments here.

We can debate passion vs ability from all sides. However, we can't dismiss that some of us are not quite as good as we think we are. That's the honest truth, which is just another way of saying "it's my opinion". 

I think, at some point it's beneficial to Know your spot, I think I  know mine.

Blue

This sounds a bit depressing to me. If I didn't have a day job I'd spend hours every day practising bass, drums, and guitar, and I would without a doubt improve my skills. I'm always improving despite the fact I have no time to practise. This isn't limited to my abilities on my instrument(s), I hope to improve all of my skills, continuously, for the whole of my life. I'll still be getting better when I'm 60, and if I ever manage to retire I'll be getting better at a faster rate as I'll have more time

I think the expression is "Every day is a school day"

[steve-bbb]

11 minutes ago, radiophonic said:

 

There is a lot of luck involved though.

i would suggest that there is not much luck at all now compared to three four decades ago - as with all businesses there is too much profit to be made and for the money wranglers to allow luck to prevail would in their eyes be quite detrimental to their bank balances

this sums it up better than i can  Frank Zappa Explains the Decline of the Music Business (1987)

 

[ivansc]

Blue - with you all the way. It took leaving the UK (where I was already a minor pro player) to realise that it isnt all about being rich and famous.

Nashville opened my eyes. No need to be a virtuoso player there, just fit in, be prepared for anything & make an effort to get on with your fellow players at the gig.

When I came back to the UK I went straight into touring for a living (got lucky) and made a decent living up until when I quit in 2006.  Since then I have slowly wound down my levels of activity but still get out regularly although mostly local. 

And the point of all this is that I STILL felt/feel passionate about music & never have regretted the path I chose.

One important thing: In the UK you CAN do touring and keep some sort of dayjob for the most part.

[Dood]

As Nathan East says: Attitude + Aptitude = Altitude. I love that.

In this case I would put Passion in with Attitude, because if I love what I am doing I am way more focussed and driven to make sure I am better at it. That's not to say if I am given work that I'm not as excited about, I don't give it my all; This is my job and I have had excellence drummed in to me from my previous career. 

Thankfully I've only had the fewest of jobs I wasn't so enamoured with, but lets face it, who wouldn't be happy being able to do what they love with their favourite instrument all day?

[Barking Spiders]

For me by far the most important thing is a band's ability to be able to make a connection with the crowd and to get them so buzzing it all ends up being a big party.  I could never play the type of music that is for seated audiences that listen attentively and clap  at the end of songs. So I guess it's a big win for passion.

[steve-bbb]

28 minutes ago, Barking Spiders said:

For me by far the most important thing is a band's ability to be able to make a connection with the crowd and to get them so buzzing it all ends up being a big party.  I could never play the type of music that is for seated audiences that listen attentively and clap  at the end of songs. So I guess it's a big win for passion.

ive seen some very passion performances sitting politely and attentively and clapping at the appropriate points (recalls pat metheny and lyle mays at hammersmith odeon) - ive also been to livelier gigs with the front of the stalls filled with standing/dancing jumping etc (be bop deluxe) both completely different crowd dynamic but irrespective of musical ability both  very passionate

passion is independent of technique, ability and  vigorous physical movement

[mikel]

14 hours ago, Bluewine said:

That would be an entirely different discussion. IMO

Blue

Hardly, the OP is "Passion vs Ability". I chose Passion. Obviously you need a certain amount of ability to even play a local Pub, but If you have passion you make even the most mundane exciting. I am passionate about every gig we play, regardless of the size or importance of the venue. Passion simply means, for me, that you immerse yourself in the activity. I get everything out of my involvement with the Bass guitar, because however little ability I may have, I put everything into each gig or rehearsal.

[BigRedX]

There is a mistaken tendency for musicians to think that technical ability is more important than putting on a good performance.

Obviously you need a certain amount of technical ability to be able to play the music competently, but anything above that is IMO purely for your own personal satisfaction and nothing more. 

In fact these days where the live performance is the product and the recording is simply the promotional item (and besides all but the most dire of takes in the studio can be fixed in production) it is far more important to look right and have the passion for putting on a show your audience will enjoy, rather than simply standing there concentrating on playing the right notes perfectly.

[FinnDave]

Ability is something you can learn, passion is something you are born with. If you have the passion, you'll learn the ability. Doesn't work the other round, though.

[petebassist]

Interesting thread.
Another couple of important attributes: tenacity and luck, though it's arguable that you make your own luck. I keep going and try to maintain a pro attitude to any performance whether I'm being paid or not. As to talent generally, I'm smart enough to know that I know know nothing (a la Socrates ;-). I guess turning pro might be great if you're lucky enough to be playing the music you love, but otherwise... 

On talent V passion, in TV talent shows that have become popular in recent years, the schtick being pushed is that passion trumps talent, especially if that passion involves a sad/difficult back story where the performer really really really wants to win. This unfortunately encourages the less than talented to delude themselves. By the finals, it's talent that wins out though.

[tonyquipment]

Enthusiasm over ability 

you might be amazing but if you ain’t enjoying it, not fun no more. 

 

Im very basic at instruments. Can play a lot of them but not very good at any of them. Have fun playing all of them at a basic or medium/mediocre level. I’m happy with that. 

Fun is all that matters I reckon. It’s gotta be fun. 

[Bluewine]

6 hours ago, charic said:

I think different people show their passion in different ways, for some it's having the biggest stage shows around, others it's in how they practice endlessly to make sure every performance flawless

I think we're talking about 2 different issues Charic.

A person could have a passion for big stage shows but suck at putting together big stage shows. In other words having the passion but no ability.

And then the guy who's passionate about practicing, but no matter how much or how hard he practices he never really improves because the ability is not there.

Blue

[Bluewine]

6 hours ago, radiophonic said:

Just as long as we are clear that 'casting couch' refers to being the victim of sexual harassment or sexual assault.

There is a lot of luck involved though. Playing the right music at the right time or one song being picked up by a TV show or a DJ or someone remixing you and everyone hearing it when they are on their hols. It's pretty random really. I recall when (the excellent) Aereogramme split up they referred to an 'almost telepathic ability to avoid the zeitgeist'.

Again that's a different discussion. I don't think the guy that shows up at the right time for anything is going to get far if he doesn't have the "ability" to do the job.

Blue

[charic]

3 minutes ago, Bluewine said:

I think we're talking about 2 different issues Charic.

A person could have a passion for big stage shows but suck at putting together big stage shows. In other words having the passion but no ability.

And then the guy who's passionate about practicing, but no matter how much or how hard he practices he never really improves because the ability is not there.

Blue

What I was trying to get across is that passion isn't always a visible aspect with someone.

I would think though that although some people have some natural ability, without at least a good amount of passion to begin with they'll never get there.

 

[Bluewine]

4 hours ago, mikel said:

Hardly, the OP is "Passion vs Ability". I chose Passion. Obviously you need a certain amount of ability to even play a local Pub, but If you have passion you make even the most mundane exciting. I am passionate about every gig we play, regardless of the size or importance of the venue. Passion simply means, for me, that you immerse yourself in the activity. I get everything out of my involvement with the Bass guitar, because however little ability I may have, I put everything into each gig or rehearsal.

At one time I was passionate about being a pro bass player touring the world, until I realized I didn't have the ability, I didn't have what it takes to do that.

I did have the ability and what it takes to be successful at the bar band level and I became passionate about playing at the bar band level.

We might be talking about the same thing.

Blue

 

[Bluewine]

1 hour ago, tonyquipment said:

Enthusiasm over ability 

you might be amazing but if you ain’t enjoying it, not fun no more. 

 

Im very basic at instruments. Can play a lot of them but not very good at any of them. Have fun playing all of them at a basic or medium/mediocre level. I’m happy with that. 

Fun is all that matters I reckon. It’s gotta be fun. 

That would be great for a thread about being happy and having fun 

Blue

[Bluewine]

4 hours ago, BigRedX said:

It is far more important to look right and have the passion for putting on a show your audience will enjoy, rather than simply standing there concentrating on playing the right notes perfectly.

My argument,

Lots of artists have the right passion for putting on a show their audience will enjoy., but in reality they suck at putting on a show their audience will enjoy.

They have the right passion but don't have what it takes.

Blue

Edited November 21, 2017 by Bluewine

[charic]

Doesn't ability come from passion though?

No-one is born with ability, it comes with time and practice which you'll only do if you've got the passion.

 

[Bluewine]

7 hours ago, cheddatom said:

This sounds a bit depressing to me. If I didn't have a day job I'd spend hours every day practising bass, drums, and guitar, and I would without a doubt improve my skills. I'm always improving despite the fact I have no time to practise. This isn't limited to my abilities on my instrument(s), I hope to improve all of my skills, continuously, for the whole of my life. I'll still be getting better when I'm 60, and if I ever manage to retire I'll be getting better at a faster rate as I'll have more time

I think the expression is "Every day is a school day"

Yeah, I guess it can be a little depressing. Looking at reality can be that way 

Cheddatom I am quite sure you have the ability to get better and always improve.

Remember my premise is a little different. I knew whatever I did or how much I practiced I would never have what it takes to be a pro bass player touring the world and making a living from it.

I practice a lot and get better everyday and I'm sucessful at the bar band level.

Blue

Edited November 21, 2017 by Bluewine
Correction

[charic]

There's plenty of Pro's out there with lower ability than "amateurs"

[Bluewine]

11 minutes ago, charic said:

Doesn't ability come from passion though?

No-one is born with ability, it comes with time and practice which you'll only do if you've got the passion.

 

Good question.

I don't know, I guess ability could come from passion.

I can only speak for myself. No one could have been more passionate than me about being a pro bass player touring the world and making a living. Reality, I never had the ability, bever had what it takes.

It's different for each of us. I probably wouldn't have what it takes to get it together to get a passport and a visa to work in other countries. I don't have the organization or focus 

Blue

[Bluewine]

6 minutes ago, charic said:

There's plenty of Pro's out there with lower ability than "amateurs"

I am sure there are too.

But that's really a different discussion.

Blue

[Monkey Steve]

I think we might be suffering slightly from the differences between UK and US English

On this side of the pond we tend to take "passion" to mean the effort we put into the actual, individual performance, the show we put on that night.  Hence all the comments about passion being better than technical ability

My reading of Blue's post is passion meaning more the internal drive behind wanting to do that particular level of playing/career choice (local show, national show, international headliners, etc)