Self Awareness and the ability to play

[Bilbo]

I wanted to raise something by way of insight that has come to me very late in life and which relates to the issue of technical ability.

 

As players, we have probably all, at some point, dreamed of achieving something as a musician that, as we failed to achieve it, may have appeared increasingly unattainable. I have had periods when I had absolutely no doubt whatsoever that I was a total genius but also have had (much longer) periods when I have held the view that I am either a total wanker or, at best, am only ever going to be a B-Lister at best.

 

In my mid-50s, through conscious decisions made over the last few years, I have long since stopped doing gigs that I found frustrating musically and just done gigs that I know are going to involve a good standard of music making. Whilst this has reduced the numbers of gigs I am doing considerably, every gig I now do is with people who are playing at a high standard and I am almost always the weakest player in the band (there are almost no ‘bands’ involved in this as most of the music I play is with ensembles are scratch bands that are made up of deps and guests with local rhythm sections etc). What I have noticed is that there are many occasions where I find myself playing fairly demanding material and generally nailing it. The bits where things fall apart tend to be the complex passages of written material that I am not familiar with before the gig. What is apparent is that the difference between my playing being good and it being great is NOT ability (unless you mean my ability to read complex passages ‘cold’) but simply a lack of rehearsal and of familiarity with the material being performed (no stinky poo, Sherlock).

 

Looking back at my development over the years, I have to say that a lot of my early and mid-term lack of confidence has come from playing with people who, frankly, weren’t very good and my failing to recognise that, whatever levels of competence I had as a player, I could not make it swing or groove on my own no matter how hard I tried. However good I may or may not have been, a crap drummer/pianist/ guitarist etc was always going to compromise the performance and make it sound ropey. The issue is, how does a developing player learn to recognise when a weak performance is his/her fault and when it is the fault of a weak sideman? When I think back, a lot of the weaknesses in performances I was involved in in the past were not my fault (some undoubtedly were so don’t think this is a cop out). When I play with the ‘big guns’ now, I know my shortcomings (extended harmony mostly) but I have also come to realise that I am only two or three rehearsals away from nailing pretty much anything within reason. There have been a few occasions when there has been a rehearsal and things gel quite quickly.  

 

It feels good, particularly as a semi-pro, to think that the ability to play the music I love at a high standard is not necessarily as far away as I thought. It’s not about ability per se but about the amount of time I can commit to preparing for each specific performance. I guess most of us are better when we practice, rehearse and prepare.

[mikel]

If I don't like something, I don't play it. If I am not given the time to prepare for a gig or an audition, I don't do it. If I find someone in a band is obnoxious, either I walk, or they do. Life is too short, and I enjoy playing too much to put up with avoidable irritations. Music is fun, if something makes it not  fun, I avoid it.

[Bluewine]

2 hours ago, mikel said:

If I don't like something, I don't play it. If I am not given the time to prepare for a gig or an audition, I don't do it. If I find someone in a band is obnoxious, either I walk, or they do. Life is too short, and I enjoy playing too much to put up with avoidable irritations. Music is fun, if something makes it not  fun, I avoid it.

I am not sure everyone understands how important the "fun" element of gigging actually is. 

I make it my business to have fun at every gig. However I don't play for fun, I play for money.

Since I'm being paid, what I like or don't like doesn't come into the picture. I'm paid to play the songs our band leader calls, not what I like.

"Fun" is a requirement for my band the minute we arrive at a gig.

I'm a proud B list bar band player.

Blue

Edited November 21, 2017 by Bluewine
Correction

[12stringbassist]

As Blue says, "He who pays the piper calls the tune". If you can tell from knowing who is arranging the work, or who you know may be playing, that the gig is going to be enjoyable, all the better.

I tend to make sure my choice of gigs is enjoyable these days and have turned down an amount of stuff I don't want to do (that includes venues as well as dep jobs).
 

[Bluewine]

3 minutes ago, 12stringbassist said:

As Blue says, "He who pays the piper calls the tune". If you can tell from knowing who is arranging the work, or who you know may be playing, that the gig is going to be enjoyable, all the better.

I tend to make sure my choice of gigs is enjoyable these days and have turned down an amount of stuff I don't want to do (that includes venues as well as dep jobs).
 

Good point,

And now that I think about our gig count is down. But as I look at it closer, we dropped a few clubs and bars that were not a good for us or any rock band for that matter.

Blue

[peteb]

I think that we are perhaps getting away a little from the point of the OP.

Like Bilbo, I aspire to pay better gigs with better musicians (but not any form of jazz of course), even though most of the time I play in bars for so-so money (like Blue). Certainly, it is the times when I’ve shared a stage with people like Lance Lopez for half an hour, where I was a bit out of my comfort zone but still managed to hang, that I remember with the most satisfaction.  It makes you think that perhaps you could play at a higher level if the opportunity arose.

I think that the thing about playing the local gigs with some guys who are perhaps not quite as experienced are that you learn to cover for them and play around the weak points of their playing. Hopefully you can make them sound good and even get them to play better, just as superior players make you play to a higher standard. Of course some just aren’t up to it and you have to try and avoid them where possible…

[lurksalot]

A great insight Bilbo , and in reflection I can see some similarities , bizzarrely the band I'm in seem to be trying to do more functions , thus party tunes seem to be the thing , not a problem in themselves but they don't seem to be giving the musical attention to the party tunes as they can 'jam' them , this is definitely having a derogatory effect on my playing , this is more to attitudes and motivation I would think , still will work it through and resolve it , recognising it is the first step I guess ! 

[mikel]

2 hours ago, Bluewine said:

I am not sure everyone understands how important the "fun" element of gigging actually is. 

I make it my business to have fun at every gig. However I don't play for fun, I play for money.

Since I'm being paid, what I like or don't like doesn't come into the picture. I'm paid to play the songs our band leader calls, not what I like.

"Fun" is a requirement for my band the minute we arrive at a gig.

I'm a proud B list bar band player.

Blue

We know Blue, you mention this fact in most of your posts. 

[Bluewine]

5 hours ago, mikel said:

We know Blue, you mention this fact in most of your posts. 

Well, you never know. There might be new BC members that don't know my position. 

Plus the whole "Proud B List Bar Band Player" is sort of  a new tag phrase for me. (:

Blue 

Edited November 22, 2017 by Bluewine

[xgsjx]

I can only ever dream of being a B-lister.  

I like playing, but like Bilbo says, if the musicians are sloppy or not up to scratch, it can be frustrating & take the fun away.

Finding good musicians around my area seems to be impossible.  The ones that are here are already in bands or projects.  So for the time, I'm a home player until I move to a different area (which should be in early/mid 2018).

 

[Bilbo]

Fun and high standards are not mutually exclusive. Sharing a stage with,  say, Nicolas Meier and Asaf Sirkis and kind of nearly nailing it is a complete buzz. My point is that, given a two hour rehearsal,  I KNOW I would have nailed the handful of details that I missed because, say, my reading was not up to it or I didn't know a break or ending as well as I should. It is rarely because I am 'not good enough'.

[mikel]

31 minutes ago, Bilbo said:

Fun and high standards are not mutually exclusive. Sharing a stage with,  say, Nicolas Meier and Asaf Sirkis and kind of nearly nailing it is a complete buzz. My point is that, given a two hour rehearsal,  I KNOW I would have nailed the handful of details that I missed because, say, my reading was not up to it or I didn't know a break or ending as well as I should. It is rarely because I am 'not good enough'.

Exactly. My self awareness led me to only playing what I love, or I find interesting, and only playing with people who are easy to get along with and don't have big ego's or agendas. Jamming with a bunch of start up musicians can be as fulfilling as playing a big venue with a lineup of top pro's. I personally prefer playing with musicians who may not have the best technique but who are creative and inventive in their playing, as opposed to highly trained and well practiced guys who simply play by numbers.

[oldbass]

Sfunny but I'm actually going the other way so to speak.

My dream set up right now would be to find a local jazz quintet or similiar but it ain't gonna happen so I help out now and again with a below par function band who are the most disparate group of muso's I've ever played with ranging from a drummer who plays with his index finger clamped to the top of the sticks, his timing is the worst Ive experienced in 40 + yrs through to an ex pro keyboard wizard and all levels of ability between.

Thing is none of it matters as there a brilliant bunch and a lot of fun.

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by oldbass

[mikel]

8 minutes ago, oldbass said:

Sfunny but I'm actually going the other way so to speak.

My dream set up right now would be to find a local jazz quintet or similiar but it ain't gonna happen so I help out now and again with a very poor function band who are the most disparate group of muso's I've ever played with ranging from a drummer who plays with his index finger clamped to the top of the sticks.....yep terrible, through to an ex pro keyboard wizard and all levels of ability between cause I'm beyond. ` 

All's cool as there a brilliant bunch and a lot of fun.

 

Who cares about his technique, can he keep a groove?  Thats what matters.  I play with a self taught keys player who cant read music and learns everything by ear. He is the best keys player I have ever played with cos he is subtle and inventive.

[KevB]

Not in same league musically as Rob 'no pens' Palmer but I have had a similar sort of journey, albeit at a rather more mundane pub level. I'm pickier about what sort of projects I get involved in and the players involved. I have no qualms in walking away if they don't pan out quite as expected. If this means doing fewer gigs and less spare cash around then so be it. I have other interests so its easy for me to simply spend more time doing other non bass related things when I'm between bands.

[thepurpleblob]

Music isn't my day job plus I started playing as an early mid-life-crises thing and (in my mid 50s now) have been playing less than 20 years. I don't aspire to do any better than "get away with it" as I know I won't ever have the hours in the days. 

My day job in IT I have spent thousands of hours and become something of an authority in my limited field. However, I still feel like I am scratching around the edges and have everything to learn. That's life. Only stupid people think they're the greatest. 

As a side note... I always walk away from crap drummers. There's nothing like a bad drummer to make me feel like I can't play any more. 

[Tonteee]

Not wanting to move this thread away from it's focus, I'm not always dismissive of a 'crap' drummer. 

 

I currently play in a punky type outfit - not my usual bag, dahlink - with a guy who describes himself as a crap drummer.  In fact, he was crap when I started to play with him about 6 months ago.  However, he listened.  To me, that then makes him not crap.  He's now much better and thus more confident.

On the other hand, I play in a Funk/Soul band where the drummer's a virtuoso and likes to show so.  Don't fugging listen tho.  Ergo, potentially crap.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Tonteee

[thepurpleblob]

I'm far too old and miserable to give people a chance ;-)   If it feels rubbish then it's probably rubbish.  By the way, I completely support other people's right to think I'm crap too!

[Bluewine]

6 hours ago, xgsjx said:

I can only ever dream of being a B-lister.  

I like playing, but like Bilbo says, if the musicians are sloppy or not up to scratch, it can be frustrating & take the fun away.

Finding good musicians around my area seems to be impossible.  The ones that are here are already in bands or projects.  So for the time, I'm a home player until I move to a different area (which should be in early/mid 2018).

 

My sympathies,

I complain a lot and after hearing your story I have nothing to complain about. I've been in a very popular working blues /rock bar band for the past 6 years with not only good Musicians more importantly good people.

Living in an area where there are no decent musicians to play with must be frustrating. I hope things change for you in the near future.

Blue

Edited November 22, 2017 by Bluewine

[Muzz]

I've never ever been as deluded as to consider myself any sort of genius, but there's an immense satisfaction for me in doing the very very best job I can in whatever situation I'm in: I'm lucky to play regularly with some very good musicians, and whether I'm skipping to keep up with them, or being able to improve the representation of a song, be it a 'cheesy' old (or new) cover or an original song, I always enjoy myself, and I'm a better player after every gig...actually after every time I pick a bass up.

That seems to me to be the whole point from a personal point of view.

[Barking Spiders]

Playing bass and other instruments is just one of half a dozen things I like to do when I'm not working . As long as I can nail a few dozen classic basslines that can get me gigs in a band that'll do.  Way back when I was a callow youth, used to have crises of confidence when I saw better players than me but now I'm careering towards 50 I couldn't give a monkey's left tit  how I compare to others.

[Lozz196]

A lot of the weakness in many musicians is attitude. Bass Guitar Mag had a great article a couple of editions ago where a bassist was interviewed and he said that there are many better players out there than him, but do they have the right attitude to sit in a tour bus, gig endlessly, be away from family at Xmas etc. Over the past weekend my band have secured a couple of pretty decent gigs - am keeping quiet as to what/where at present - whereas many of the people I`ve been in bands with previously would have baulked at these, and found so many reasons to not do them, whereas all in the band only found reasons why we should. So someone who can play great can hold you back equally as much, if not more, than an adequate player.

[FinnDave]

I have nothing to contribute to this thread, but I would like to say it is a very interesting and thought-provoking read.

[DaveFry]

I went through a long phase once of thinking that I would never be able to play a fretless in tune until I realised it was the guitarist's inability to play an A major chord followed by a D major with both in tune .

[T-Bay]

Let’s face it, even the worst of us is 99.9%better than the average of the population and 100%better than someone who worries so much they don’t have a go.