Interesting Video

[GreeneKing]

 

[skelf]

Worth listening to the end.

 

[GreeneKing]

I'll delete mine Alan

It's most definitely worth the effort to watch it in it's entirety.

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by GreeneKing

[GreeneKing]

Duplicate thread, see:

 

Can't seem to be able to delete.

[skelf]

Sorry I missed that you had posted already. 

[fleabag]

What an excellent vid

" what if the small luthiers prices are the norm, and all the big factories getting their axes made wherever, are too cheap "

 

Quite right

[skidder652003]

Hmmmmm, the so called exploitation of people producing manufactured goods in places like China has seen millions of people lifted from absoloute poverty to what we may perceive here as relative poverty but to them as a burgeoning middle class, its not so simple as he makes it out to be.

[Cato]

Interesting.

I've only watched the first part, but he's already fallen for the fallacy of judging foreign 'low' wages by western standards.

Someone working in one of these factories may only earn $50 a month,  but what's actually important is what that $50 can buy in their home country. 

If for that $50 they can feed, cloth and shelter themselves and their families for a month, then in real terms it's actually the equivalent of a western wage with a much higher nominal value.

I'm not saying that there is no exploitation in these countries, but assesing the real extent of the problem is a lot more complex than just stating that Indonesian factory workers only earn x$ a day.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Cato

[gjones]

Because of globalisation,  eventually, wages will be equalised throughout the world. It's redistribution of wealth but not how Karl Marx envisioned it. 

[skelf]

Just out of curiosity did you all watch it to the end. 

 

The later  half of the video is why I posted it on a bass forum not so much the globalisation aspect at the beginning. 

Edited November 22, 2017 by skelf

[ead]

Very nicely put across too.  So do you sell happiness Mr C?

[fleabag]

A Finn Typr R Fretless 4 would make me seriously happy   

[skelf]

I certainly want happy customers so to a degree I suppose that is the goal. 

[pbasspecial]

Definitely worth a watch but as a master luthier he clearly has an 'Axe to Grind'.

[GreeneKing]

42 minutes ago, pbasspecial said:

Definitely worth a watch but as a master luthier he clearly has an 'Axe to Grind'.

You know, having watched the video right through and listened carefully to what he says, and seeing the great pains he went to to be transparent, I'd disagree 100% with that. What you got was a dose of reality. Not always what one wants.

That's my take.

[ivansc]

I have a question: Who decides when someone is officially a "master luthier"?

 

[Happy Jack]

Well when Mr. Luthier and Mrs. Luthier love each other very much and decide to have a baby ...

[skelf]

5 minutes ago, ivansc said:

I have a question: Who decides when someone is officially a "master luthier"?

 

In various countries like Austria and Germany you  have to pass certain levels of competence in order to be called a luthier they then get the title Master not sure if that is the case in Finland but having seen Juhas work I would say he certainly qualifies.

[Happy Jack]

Interesting video, and he seems like a lovely guy, but his economic and political naivety is quite extraordinary.

His constant references to "cheap production" and "exploitation" ignore the reality, which is that for example Fender making "cheap" guitars (branded as Squier) in Japan created jobs and helped to raise the standard of living in Japan to the extent that they moved production to Korea, then to China, then to Indonesia, then to Vietnam, in each case creating a new population of skilled workers earning more than they earned before, and now capable of pushing ahead without further investment from abroad.

That's how economies work. The people who live in those countries, just like the people who live here in the UK, don't constantly look abroad and wish that they had the same standard of living as someone richer. Most people look at what they have now, compare it with what they had before or what their parents had before, and judge on that basis whether or not they're doing well.

And when those Third World countries benefit from this sort of inward investment and develop their economies, guess what - they stop being Third World countries and become Developing countries.

"Exploitation" definitely exists in many unskilled industries, most famously textiles, and I don't condone that for a second, but this luthier's definition of "exploitation" and his clarion call to cease "exploiting" these countries would see those very country's economies damaged and their workers thrown into unemployment. Is that really such an achievement?

Basschat's tentacles extend a long way around the world. I'd love to hear from some Basschatters in Indonesia, Malaysia and Vietnam as to whether they'd like to see the big instrument factories closed down. For their benefit.

I'd even more like to hear from Basschatters in Kenya, Mozambique and Sierra Leone who are likely to be the next recipients of this sort of inward investment. Because, of course, their labour is now cheaper than the workers of Japan, Korea, China, Indonesia, Vietnam and Malaysia. There's a reason for that ...

[Bigwan]

21 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

Interesting video, and he seems like a lovely guy, but his economic and political naivety is quite extraordinary.

His constant references to "cheap production" and "exploitation" ignore the reality, which is that for example Fender making "cheap" guitars (branded as Squier) in Japan created jobs and helped to raise the standard of living in Japan to the extent that they moved production to Korea, then to China, then to Indonesia, then to Vietnam, in each case creating a new population of skilled workers earning more than they earned before, and now capable of pushing ahead without further investment from abroad.

That's how economies work. The people who live in those countries, just like the people who live here in the UK, don't constantly look abroad and wish that they had the same standard of living as someone richer. Most people look at what they have now, compare it with what they had before or what their parents had before, and judge on that basis whether or not they're doing well.

And when those Third World countries benefit from this sort of inward investment and develop their economies, guess what - they stop being Third World countries and become Developing countries.

"Exploitation" definitely exists in many unskilled industries, most famously textiles, and I don't condone that for a second, but this luthier's definition of "exploitation" and his clarion call to cease "exploiting" these countries would see those very country's economies damaged and their workers thrown into unemployment. Is that really such an achievement?

Basschat's tentacles extend a long way around the world. I'd love to hear from some Basschatters in Indonesia, Malaysia and Vietnam as to whether they'd like to see the big instrument factories closed down. For their benefit.

I'd even more like to hear from Basschatters in Kenya, Mozambique and Sierra Leone who are likely to be the next recipients of this sort of inward investment. Because, of course, their labour is now cheaper than the workers of Japan, Korea, China, Indonesia, Vietnam and Malaysia. There's a reason for that ...

So what you're saying is these manufacturers move production from countries like Japan to countries like Indonesia to help the Indonesian economy? And you think the guy in the video is being naive? I'd say he's not the only one. What you describe is a side effect of companies chasing the lowest cost of production. Plain and simple. As soon as it becomes cheaper to produce guitars to certain standards and schedules and in the required quantities elsewhere in the world, a corporation will move production because the bottom line profitability is all that matters to them. It would be nice to think they're moving production from country A to country B just to help out all the B population, but that is rose tinted viewing at best. I've seen it in every company I've ever worked for, current one especially.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Bigwan

[skelf]

To be honest I posted it in relation to why  instruments cost what they cost not as an argument for or against globalisation which seems to be the only thing the majority seem to take from it. 

[fleabag]

So what you're saying is these manufacturers move production from countries like Japan to countries like Indonesia to help the Indonesian economy? And you think the guy in the video is being naive? I'd say he's not the only one. What you describe is a side effect of companies chasing the lowest cost of production. Plain and simple. As soon as it becomes cheaper to produce guitars to certain standards and schedules and in the required quantities elsewhere in the world, a corporation will move production because the bottom line profitability is all that matters to them. It would be nice to think they're moving production from country A to country B just to help out all the B population, but that is rose tinted viewing at best. I've seen it in every company I've ever worked for, current one especially.

 

Asbo lootly

 

These monster machines like Fender are simply not moving production to overseas because they're good guys

They're chasing ever and ever cheaper ways of cutting costs, therefore making even more money. That new yacht the MD has his eye on has to be paid for

Edited November 23, 2017 by fleabag

[FinnDave]

1 hour ago, skelf said:

In various countries like Austria and Germany you  have to pass certain levels of competence in order to be called a luthier they then get the title Master not sure if that is the case in Finland but having seen Juhas work I would say he certainly qualifies.

It says on his Wikiedia timeline that he received the degree of Master Luthier in 2009.

Having lived and worked in Finland for many years, I can tell you that everyone there seems to have a qualification in something. Even people working in the big shops there like Prisma and Citymarket will have spent 2 or 3 years at college in order to gain a qualification in shop work.

[Happy Jack]

1 hour ago, Bigwan said:

So what you're saying is these manufacturers move production from countries like Japan to countries like Indonesia to help the Indonesian economy?  

Nope. And I don't believe that you're stupid enough to think that's what I wrote. 

[Happy Jack]

17 minutes ago, fleabag said:

These monster machines like Fender are simply not moving production to overseas because they're good guys

 

Ditto.