More Beatles more Beatles more Beatles

[Dad3353]

It could maybe be admitted that musical 'fact' and 'absolutes' can, and do, change and evolve over time. Minor was not admissible at one point in Western music, nor even the black notes. Dissonance has a fairly chequered history, too. What is considered sublime by some can become heretical to others later, and conversely. There are, of course other 'musics' out there, too, as you doubtless know. Javanese scales sound pretty 'out' to many, but are well understood by the musicians playing 'em. There is a certain subjectivity to it all. 'Music concrete'..? Electronica..? All is not C-D-E etc.

[The Jaywalker]

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Edited November 28, 2017 by The Jaywalker

[SpondonBassed]

5 hours ago, The Jaywalker said:

Your usual straw man argument, Dad. We're not discussing a reaction against some "new" development here. We're talking pop music recorded almost half a century ago and soloing by a jazz-influenced bassist influenced by stylistic stuff even older. Or am I supposed to be persuaded that the mere existence of Musique Concrete means all musical appreciation must be purely subjective opinion and knowledge/analysis is meaningless...? Behave yourself ;-)

 

I left a classical education for a technical one because of attitudes like yours.

[wateroftyne]

5 hours ago, The Jaywalker said:

...am I supposed to be persuaded that the mere existence of Musique Concrete means all musical appreciation must be purely subjective opinion and knowledge/analysis is meaningless...?

Yes, given that music is more of an art than a science.

[grandad]

Spoiler

 

Not had the benefit of a musical education but am trying to learn and expand my musical theory by reading and listening and practicing and keeping company of others who have. I've watched Mr Goodall's programmes and I'm sure read a book of his. I just accepted him as expert. I'm not sure I'm following the disagreements in this thread.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musique_concrète

After reading the above, just to refresh my memory, I soon associated The Beatles's and George Martin's musical adventures in their studio years with what had occurred previously in France, and probably elsewhere.

To me, in isolation, much experimental music does seem dissonant, or strange in structure. But give it a context, say a film soundtrack, and it hits you right between the eyes and just works.

The context of The Beatles music was the 60's and as we listen or play it now the context is different. So much of it has stood the test of time.

 

[Barking Spiders]

When you look at who else knocking around in the 60s you should be able to appreciate why The Beatles have been so lauded.There's was loads of dire twee pop in the vein of Herman's Hermits, Freddie & The Dreamers , hand me down white boy blues like The Stones and loads of other now obscure dross you can hear on Sounds of the 60s on R2 of a Saturday morn.

[PaulWarning]

1 minute ago, Barking Spiders said:

When you look at who else knocking around in the 60s you should be able to appreciate why The Beatles have been so lauded.There's was loads of dire twee pop in the vein of Herman's Hermits, Freddie & The Dreamers , hand me down white boy blues like The Stones and loads of other now obscure dross you can hear on Sounds of the 60s on R2 of a Saturday morn.

this is true, but there's total dross in any era of music, I don't think there ever been an era that progressed so much, started out with manufactured solo artist like Pat Boon and finished up with heavy and progressive rock like Jimi Hendrix, Cream, Black Sabbath and Led Zepplin

[Dad3353]

7 hours ago, The Jaywalker said:

Your usual straw man argument, Dad...

Sorry to have walked into your cabbage patch; it seems I must bow to your superior erudition. That'll larn me to attempt any expansion on a potentially interesting topic. Please forgive the intrusion; it won't happen again.

[stingrayPete1977]

So what about very well educated musicians that still think Jaco is widdley nonsense, just not as clever as jaywalker yet? 

[roceci]

17 hours ago, arthurhenry said:

I genuinely don't know what this means. Have you got a tap in the car? Wouldn't rinsing damage the albums?

Yes on both counts.

[skankdelvar]

4 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

Sorry to have walked into your cabbage patch; it seems I must bow to your superior erudition. That'll larn me to attempt any expansion on a potentially interesting topic. Please forgive the intrusion; it won't happen again.

A few years ago I found myself living next door to an 'erudite' musician. A brass player, a teacher, a composer; as a conductor he's done the Proms for years, works regularly with major international orchestras. We had a few conversations about music which I found enlightening from my very limited perspective. This chap had a way of explaining things which made things very easy to understand yet I never felt like he was talking down to me or using his knowledge as a tool to buff his self image at my expense. 

The thing that sticks in my mind was when he scored a gig with the Berlin Phil. He came round to tell me, bringing his unaffected delight and a couple of bottles of wine for us. Such a nice man.

Edited November 27, 2017 by skankdelvar

[The Jaywalker]

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Edited November 28, 2017 by The Jaywalker

[wateroftyne]

10 minutes ago, The Jaywalker said:

Ok guys, I get it. Theory is bad, knowledge is bad, everyone is the same.....

It looks to me like you're just trolling now, so I'll be honest and say I can't be bothered to read the rest of your post.

[Barking Spiders]

The bands I named were more or less knocking around at the same time as The Beatles during their heyday before Led Zep, Black Sabbath etc starting making inroads.

Viz the theory chat chat going on here I'm all for knowing about time signatures, chord patterns and keys but beyond that as i dont earn a crust from playing music I'd rather  get a few score tunes I like under me belt than spend loads of time studiously learning about the finer details of music theory. Fine for the pros here and there but for  amateurs who like to gig now and again for fun it's a bit of a waste of time ..IMO

[stingrayPete1977]

1 hour ago, wateroftyne said:

It looks to me like you're just trolling now, so I'll be honest and say I can't be bothered to read the rest of your post.

I agree,  I'm sure plenty of educated people would disagree with jaywalker's posts,  Goodhall for a start,  there's only one person here trying to make this an us and them thread. 

 

[stingrayPete1977]

Fwiw I can read fly stinky poo, it doesn't stop me enjoying technically flawed or simple pop and rock songs. 

[Si600]

On 25/11/2017 at 14:33, mikel said:

No, I refuse to bite,  there have been too many Beatles trolling threads lately. If you don't like something, don't listen to it. Job done. 

I don't like them.  So I don't!

[Bluewine]

26 minutes ago, Si600 said:

I don't like them.  So I don't!

The thing about The Beatles, you don't have to listen to them or like them. They're still going to be The Beatles.

Blue

[roceci]

On 25/11/2017 at 14:33, mikel said:

No, I refuse to bite,  there have been too many Beatles trolling threads lately. If you don't like something, don't listen to it. Job done. 

Missed this. If putting your thoughts out there for comment is trolling, what's the point in a forum?

[neilp]

On 26/11/2017 at 20:47, The Jaywalker said:

You style yourself as a "less well musically educated" person. It's good that you enjoyed the experience of watching the video. I don't fall into that category. I'm an extremely well educated musician (and composer) - and there are a lot if us out there - who understands the innaccuracies in Goodall's info and arguments. If you were more educated yourself, you would understand that music isnt solely a matter of opinion.  

Maybe I'm being too harsh on Howard Goodall and he was just "doing the gig" the producers asked for. I styled him a fanboy because of some of the stupid points he attempts to make (see pentatonics above...no ragas, just straight pentatonics) and blatantly crediting JL/PMc with George Martin's work (complex chord progressions). GM's guiding/compositional hand are obvious to an educated musician, especially given the info available from session guys who were there at the time. Unless, of course, the Beatles-genius-blinkers are on...

4 chord pop - George Martin - back to 4 chord pop. Even circumstantially, it's kind of obvious what was happening. As i said before, this pointless mythologising of the 4 Beatles input to their output is totally pointless. It's not like the music needs any justification!

Folk who truly understand the harmonies in "Das Lied" don't generally feel the need to take to the internet to prove how brilliant they are. Music is music, yes, but the enjoyment of it and how you personally rate it is entirely subjective. I know an internationally renowned violinist who has more education than all of us put together who loathes Mozart. I don't understand that, but what makes her wrong?

[chris_b]

1 hour ago, roceci said:

 If putting your thoughts out there for comment is trolling, what's the point in a forum?

If you Google trolling you'll understand the difference.

[roceci]

6 minutes ago, chris_b said:

If you Google trolling you'll understand the difference.

I do mate. No trolling here.

[chris_b]

11 minutes ago, roceci said:

I do mate. No trolling here.

I don't think the comments were directed at you.

[ivansc]

12 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

Sorry to have walked into your cabbage patch; it seems I must bow to your superior erudition. That'll larn me to attempt any expansion on a potentially interesting topic. Please forgive the intrusion; it won't happen again.

Next time answer him in French....

[Dad3353]

28 minutes ago, ivansc said:

Next time answer him in French....

Pearls before swine, Ivan; pearls before swine.