Bass through pa

[Lozz196]

23 hours ago, ead said:

Interested to know why.  I find that the room dynamics dictate what the front of house needs whereas what I require is just to hear what I am playing and keeping the noise levels on stage pretty low.  I often just use my Barefaced Midget as a monitor which sounds radically different to the full PA.

Have a listen to my band on Youtube - Knock Off, best track to hear the bass is Fingers to The Bone - and then you`ll see/hear why a flat un-EQ`d P-bass out front would ruin what we sound like live. No point in recording with a sound and then doing my damndest to not have that sound live. I use whatever amp/cab is there for on-stage monitoring, my Tech21 Para Driver goes straight to FOH. Given my sound it`s very unlikely it will be too boomy.

[Lozz196]

5 hours ago, mrtcat said:

What if your sound isn't right for the venue? The room has an enormous effect on the sound of the bass and by going post EQ you are tying the sound guys hands behind his back. I've run sound for years and quite often in this situation you are left with little option other than to apply heaps of eq or drop the bass to a level so low it's barely audible just to save it from killing the mix. You can't compare it to guitar as that works in a much narrower sonic space so you have far more leeway. 

As above - haven`t worked out how to multiquote on the new version of Basschat yet.

Yes, rooms can have a big effect on bass, but it depends majorly on what bass sound is being used. If a lot of warm low-end I get it, I really do, you can end up with a wall of sludge that wamps over everything. But if your bass sound is completely the opposite, requiring a lot of hi-mids and highs, plus break-up/drive, well at that point it`s now a different ball game. I`ve heard many bands have a pre-EQ bass to FOH. It`s resulted in no definition, the bass has ruined the whole perfomance. Whereas a band with carefully thought out complimentary sounds put through FOH as they are, well these bands - to my ears - have won the day. And usually their performance has sounded like their recordings, which I would hope was their aim.

We do many gigs with line-checks only, and the amount of sound-guys who have come up after the gig and raved about the sound of the bass, and how my set-up made their job so much easier, well some might be lying, but if I thought it were all of them then I`d sense a conspiracy going on. One to equal the moon-landings I`d venture.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Lozz196

[Dad3353]

11 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Have a listen...

Can't hear any great problem there getting that to FOH; I've seen dozens of bands with gnarly clanging bass which come across well without issues. I don't think 'flat un-EQ`d P-bass out front' is the only option available for FOH DI treatment, though. There are other factors involved on the console.

9 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

...how to multiquote on the new version of Basschat yet.

Try the '+' button just to the left of 'Quote'. This brings up a little box, lower right. Select that once all the multi-quotes having been selected with the '+'.

Hope this helps.

[EBS_freak]

I think the pre/post thing is become less of an issue for sound guys now that more and more digital desks are on the scene. They can carve the signal they get a lot more accurately than when they just had analogue EQ.

In reality, if you sent your sound guy a signal post your pedals but pre your amp EQ, he'd have to do less on the desk to reign that sound in. If your amp is grinding hard, then likelihood, they'll mic the cab (if they can even be bothered) as the bass will naturally be rolled off by the bass cab anyway. If you are lucky, you may get a blend of mic and DI out front.

But here's the crux of the matter, if he's just a venue engineer and you are passing through, they won't really care if you sound like garbage. As long as more bands sound good than pants, they are good to go and it reflects more on your sound as a band rather than them as an engineer.

I don't know why people seem intent on not working together with engineers.

 

Edited December 2, 2017 by EBS_freak

[Lozz196]

52 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Try the '+' button just to the left of 'Quote'. This brings up a little box, lower right. Select that once all the multi-quotes having been selected with the '+'.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, I`ll probably just about learn it all when it`s time for another change

[Lozz196]

34 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

I think the pre/post thing is become less of an issue for sound guys now that more and more digital desks are on the scene. They can carve the signal they get a lot more accurately than when they just had analogue EQ.

In reality, if you sent your sound guy a signal post your pedals but pre your amp EQ, he'd have to do less on the desk to reign that sound in.

 

Well that`s what I`ve been doing, probably not explained myself too well. It`s post some EQ-ing, as per the EQ on  my Para Driver, but not Post on the amp. On the amp itself, if they really want to DI from that rather than the Para Driver I always go Pre, so they`re still only getting the bass/pedal, without anything from the amp. Most engineers seem to really apprciate the simplicity of DI-ing from the Para Driver, probably the same with the regular Sansamps.

[chris_b]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

I don't know why people seem intent on not working together with engineers.

+1

For those few hours they control your destiny, so make them honorary members of the band and create a rapport as quickly as you can.

The guys I meet are usually happy to shake hands, do the introduction and chat about "stuff", then get down to business.

[stingrayPete1977]

I heard once that the sign of a good song is when it can be stripped right back to just an acoustic guitar or a piano and vocals yet still be both recognisable and memorable, if purely removing some of the driven tone on the bass live makes the gig not worth doing I'd be worried about the songs.

[mrtcat]

5 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

Well that`s what I`ve been doing, probably not explained myself too well. It`s post some EQ-ing, as per the EQ on  my Para Driver, but not Post on the amp. On the amp itself, if they really want to DI from that rather than the Para Driver I always go Pre, so they`re still only getting the bass/pedal, without anything from the amp. Most engineers seem to really apprciate the simplicity of DI-ing from the Para Driver, probably the same with the regular Sansamps.

Ah now you see that's more like it. There's no need to not have all your fx from pedals etc going to the sound guy (in fact it would be daft not to) I was referring more to the eq from the amp head which is what the bass player will use to make it sound pleasing to his or her ears. If you send pre eq then you can adjust to your hearts content on stage without affecting the mix out front significantly. Yes digital desks have made it way easier for engineers to cope with whatever is thrown at them but if its too wooly or there's crazy boost somewhere then you're simply fighting the tone not tweaking it. When engineering i'm always happy to see a sans amp (or many of the other di pedals).

[Kev]

Just now, mrtcat said:

Ah now you see that's more like it. There's no need to not have all your fx from pedals etc going to the sound guy (in fact it would be daft not to) I was referring more to the eq from the amp head which is what the bass player will use to make it sound pleasing to his or her ears. If you send pre eq then you can adjust to your hearts content on stage without affecting the mix out front significantly. Yes digital desks have made it way easier for engineers to cope with whatever is thrown at them but if its too wooly or there's crazy boost somewhere then you're simply fighting the tone not tweaking it. When engineering i'm always happy to see a sans amp (or many of the other di pedals).

Yes, but if you get all your drive and tone from the head, what then? 

[DiMarco]

Then you get the low end from the d.i. and the overdriven stack tone from a mic. The soundguy will blend both to get an excellent bass tone out front if he knows what he is doing. They usually mic your cab up with an sm57 but that actually works pretty well.

I always pack a non-scooped full range kickdrum mic in the shape of my AT atm250 just in case there's no proper spare mic avail for an oldskool sounding rockbassplayer.

If you are serious about your tubey overdriven bass tone, do chat with the soundguy before the soundcheck starts. Introduce yourself and shake hands. Soundguys are human (who could have ever known...) and deserve respect, besides that he can make or break your gig..During soundcheck there usually is almost no energy going into bass tone this is why you want to get your wishes and expectations across before soundcheck starts.

Or you can go about it as I did in the nineties - be louder then foh. I was young and a punkrock rusty bullethole thinking "this is my gig not the soundguy's". I have learned since then. Communicate with them if you are an fx using bassist before anything else.

Better yet if most your gigs are big enough to have foh is making sure any soundguy out there is sure to get a signal they can simply amplify without further sculpting. Some take the sansamp route, others have profiled their amp or use modellers (the latter being the worst choice). I still refuse to, but most venues I play nowadays are smallish so only the vocals and kick go through foh mostly, as my rig sounds better then what most pubs here are using (behringer junk).

 

[Lozz196]

3 hours ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

I heard once that the sign of a good song is when it can be stripped right back to just an acoustic guitar or a piano and vocals yet still be both recognisable and memorable, if purely removing some of the driven tone on the bass live makes the gig not worth doing I'd be worried about the songs.

It wouldn`t ruin the songs imo Pete, it would just make them sound unlike the recordings, and we`ve always prided ourselves on delivering live versions of our songs that sound like the recorded material.

I don`t understand why any band would want any different, unless intentional, by way of performing either a stripped back version, or a version with added orchestral accompaniment.

Otherwise why not deliver the same sound as what you`ve recorded, and what your fans have bought, and what when they come to see you play they hope to hear?

 

[stingrayPete1977]

I used to play live bass for a singer song writer who wrote and recorded his whole albums himself, all played to a high standard, the live shows sometimes had 3 guitarists or just him on guitar, sometimes acoustic sometimes electric, sometimes we had a drummer sometimes we didn't and it would be a cajon player instead, sometimes we had the female singer that did the studio session if she was around, if not Dave sang his version. It's all good, he has a whole new lineup these days and the songs still work because they are great songs.

 

If anything I go and see bands live to hear the songs played differently to the cd, I'm going to see a band on friday where the core member is an epic banjo player but you never know what you'll get until the night, I've seen him with a harpist,cellist,violinist, guitarist,bassist,drummer,percussionist and upright bass so far in various formations of no more than 5 players normally 4. Always good but never the same twice, that's live music for me

 

Edited December 2, 2017 by stingrayPete1977

[Lozz196]

Ah, each to their own, and all down to preference/opinion rather than right or wrong. I`m probably a bit (well more than a bit) anal about sounds. I remember being really disappointed when I saw The Fratellis play Chelsea Dagger on tv and the bass was nothing like the recorded version, I`d been sooooo looking forward to hearing that cracking bass sound and it just didn`t come through. I wasn`t upset for days mind, but the fact that I can still remember my disappointment shos it figured highly - no idea which tv show it was, or when.

[stingrayPete1977]

Certainly, as long as the crowd are happy it's job done

[stingrayPete1977]

There is a flip side from a listeners point of view, whenever I've seen RHCP Flea uses some crazy sounds and I'm sure it sounds ace in his in ears or fake GK bass cabs on stage, lol, but more often than not the heavily fx laden sounds don't cut through, at Knebworth I'd rather someone had given him a humbucker equipped bass and just mixed a good core tone audible around the whole park and left it at that! He's now gone back to basses with MM pickups full time, the jazzes have gone and the new ones have musicman pickups in the musicman position, other than that he still uses the Modulus basses.