Bass Through PA - Again - & Going Ampless - Please Simplify Things For Me!

[spongebob]

I appreciate this is in relation to a recent thread, but being technically inept, I really would value some point clarified in simple terms. I've seen similar threads on TB, but the complication level is just way beyond me.

Essentially, I'm looking to change the car soon into 2018. However, being a 2-seater I'm going for, the boot space is tiny. I currently gig with the Fender Rumble 500 head and 1x15 cab. That's usually enough. However, it won't fit in! The 1x12 use for rehearsal would, but that's it. I haven't gigged with both cabs in an age, just don't need to.

It's the using the PA thing I don't understand. Ideally, I was looking at a slightly smaller (more powerful?) cab (say a Barefaced One10), and then using the PA as well if needs be. Is this viable? It's only for pubs. Can it also be explained how I go from the back of the Rumble head to the PA? Which sockets/leads? I've attached a shot of the back. I'm rarely going above 1/4 on the 1x15 volume for gigs, as I always use the 'vintage' button for a a lovely thump.

I've read at the other end about going ampless altogether, using a Tech 21 NYC box. Can a kind BC'er also explain how this would work? The idea of playing with just a bass and a small box is very appealing....but I'm guessing I'd still need the cab for monitor use?

As I mentioned, most of our trio gigs are pubs, but my other 2018 project is more festival based. However, they have soundmen...so as long as I can hear myself, the FOH would be taken care of.

I do apologise for my ignorance over this. I've had a similar set-up since I stated playing years ago, and the more I read, the more confused I got. So hands in the air, I need help to understand my options here, so I can scale right down!

 

 

[stingrayPete1977]

An xlr lead from the Di on the back of the amp (strangely labelled line out on there) into your pa mixer will have that sorted so it's just a matter of hearing yourself, the obvious options are;

1-Bass cabinet under that head as normal.

2-Put your bass through the monitors on stage that face back at you if they are decent.

3-Get some in ear monitors that are fed from the pa mixer.

It mostly depends what PA you have? 

Edited December 3, 2017 by stingrayPete1977

[EBS_freak]

There's a wealth of information out on BC already - but I'll summarise it for you here.

Basically, the thought about using the PA is the same as what you'll see at the biggest of gigs. This is -

1. The majority, if not all (ideally this) the sound that the audience hears, comes out the front of house.

2. You'll need monitoring to hear your bass. This will either be traditional backline (- but typically a lot smaller than usual because it is not required to provide the bass to fill the venue), a wedge, or IEM.

Note - Not all PAs are suitable for running a large amount of bass, particularly with a lot of low end frequencies, at high volumes. Just like you would need decent backline to put out a lot of bass, you'll need a comparatively good PA to do the same. This doesn't mean you need subwoofers, but it is likely that if you are looking at entry level PA cabs, you probably won't be satisfied with the results.

If your PA is suitable for putting bass through, a XLR from your amp head (the three prong socket on the back) to your mixing desk, will get your bass signal from your amp head to the PA. You adjust your sound front of house for your bass in the same manner you would a microphone - from the desk. The EQ on your head should be for the EQ of your amp on stage*

In terms of monitoring on stage, you can either plug in a cab to your bass amp and adjust the volume so you can hear yourself. Again, the quieter that you can get away with, the better - as the quieter the stage, the better you can get your mix out front and the less bleed you get going into vocal mics. How successful using a bass rig is on stage, depends on how loud the rest of the band is. Ideally, you want everybody as quiet as you can on stage and let the PA do the work. If you can have the bass amp facing back at you instead of the audience, (tilted back at your face if it helps), you will have less bleed into your mics. If you struggle to hear the band on stage now, then you aren't going to do well with making your rig smaller - unless the rest of the band turn down or you look at something like IEMs.

You could do all your monitoring from the desk and get rid of you speaker if you have decent wedges. You can do the monitor mix from the desk and put exactly what you want to hear through a wedge. Note - most people skimp on wedges so invest in a very good wedge if you want to go this route and have lots of bass available to you.

Alternatively, just check out IEMs and just sent everything you want to hear to your ears using your own personal mix. Theres a massive thread under the Accessories sub forum. There's everything and more in there.

 

* This probably isn't the place for a pre/post DI discussion.

Edited December 3, 2017 by EBS_freak

[bazzbass]

bass players need to buy big cars. period. Anything else compromises your gig rig.

 

Ever try a 210 cab? fits in narrow spaces really well

[EBS_freak]

Removable tow hitch and trailer?

[Happy Jack]

I'm still not convinced that you should be parking a Ferrari outside the Dog & Duck ...

[spongebob]

47 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

I'm still not convinced that you should be parking a Ferrari outside the Dog & Duck ...

Sadly not in my price range!

Thanks to all for input so far - the answers are exactly what I was looking for. It's just some of the searched threads get so long and bogged down, it's hard to find the genuine info!

Do I assume that a box like the Sansamp, that you simply plug in power, plug in bass, and XLR to the desk?

I'm hoping for the venues that we tend to play, that the cab-as-monitor would be fine.

FWIW - the car shopping list is a Mercedes SLK. Who needs more than 2 seats?!!

[Tonteee]

7 minutes ago, spongebob said:

FWIW - the car shopping list is a Mercedes SLK. Who needs more than 2 seats?!!

SLKs have a boot bigger than a lunchbox, especially with the roof up.  Maybe not so bad as feared...?

[spongebob]

3 minutes ago, Tonteee said:

SLKs have a boot bigger than a lunchbox, especially with the roof up.  Maybe not so bad as feared...?

They aren't as bad as some, that's for sure!

I had a measure of one last week - it won't take my 1x15, but it would take my 1x12. Easily take a Barefaced One10, so if the output was bigger than my 1x12, I'd have a little room to spare!

[thepurpleblob]

I have a 3 series coupe and all my gear goes in the boot. Just. 

A Barefaced 2x10 is the secret!

[spongebob]

5 minutes ago, thepurpleblob said:

I have a 3 series coupe and all my gear goes in the boot. Just. 

A Barefaced 2x10 is the secret!

My current car is a 330i saloon...have to use the back seats and boot, as the seats don't fold down as in the coupe.

Seats don't fold in the SLK, and it won't fit a 2x10!

[BassBunny]

This discussion should help. A simple solution that should easily fit in your car. Again assuming the PA is suitable for putting bass FOH.

 

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, spongebob said:

Do I assume that a box like the Sansamp, that you simply plug in power, plug in bass, and XLR to the desk?

Any DI pedal that can be powered by phantom power, you could lose the need to plug in power. That way, you'd just plug your bass to the DI, then XLR to the desk (with the desk supplying the phantom power).

You'd still need to power a wedge of course if you wanted a powered speaker of some sort on stage.

[dand666]

Nothing better than turning up to a gig with a DI and running IEMS. Sounds fantastic, and takes about 30 seconds to set up and pack down. 

[EBS_freak]

19 minutes ago, dand666 said:

Nothing better than turning up to a gig with a DI and running IEMS. Sounds fantastic, and takes about 30 seconds to set up and pack down. 

Careful, you'll be turning into a lead singer next... who brings your bass? The same person that brings their mic?

[spongebob]

21 minutes ago, dand666 said:

Nothing better than turning up to a gig with a DI and running IEMS. Sounds fantastic, and takes about 30 seconds to set up and pack down. 

IEMS? Is that in-ear monitoring system?

[Tonteee]

Just now, spongebob said:

IEMS? Is that in-ear monitoring system?

Correct

[jazzmanb]

4 hours ago, spongebob said:

Sadly not in my price range!

Thanks to all for input so far - the answers are exactly what I was looking for. It's just some of the searched threads get so long and bogged down, it's hard to find the genuine info!

Do I assume that a box like the Sansamp, that you simply plug in power, plug in bass, and XLR to the desk?

I'm hoping for the venues that we tend to play, that the cab-as-monitor would be fine.

FWIW - the car shopping list is a Mercedes SLK. Who needs more than 2 seats?!!

i have a Radial Bassbone,its a high quality twin channel amp and Di in a floor box with lots of useable features,which you can use without anything else.There's no typical answer here,some pub bands are reasonably quiet and get by with a good live backline mix and a bit help from a pa,vocals and a bit drum perhaps.Our set up is full range PA Which everything runs through including drums ,cymbals etc then being a rock band we have the usual heavy helping of backline which really for me is a glorified monitor but some gigs i have no real out front monitoring to help me

[Tonteee]

Another one for the Radial Tonebone Bassbone here.  A great two channel pre-amp with two different types of EQ with an assignable boost circuit, plus XLR DI out and parallel amp out.  It does need it's own power supply, tho.

 

I have the original version - I see the present one has grown a loop circuit, and sensibly moved the XLR output to the back of the unit, too...

[spongebob]

It's gets a bit complicated now....!!

[EBS_freak]

And you have a driving license? 

 

Stick with it, it's not that hard!

[Tonteee]

I think it might be just the names of things that might be making you feel like this is complicated.

It's just as EBS excellently put it earlier - You can use your amp head to supply sound to the PA by using the three-pronged connection on the back of your amp.  You can then have a smaller speaker cabinet as you're only supplying sound up to your ear.  From the front of stage on, the PA speakers take over.  Alternatively you can go over to an 'ampless' system of just using a pedal sized box that connects directly to the PA.  What you hear back can then be through a monitor speaker or through in-ear monitors - which are like specialised earphones.

Like EBS says - stick at it.  It's just a different way of doing the same thing you did before.

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Tonteee

[spongebob]

Perfect! This is exactly what I needed to hear.

Just a way of amplifying my sound with a smaller set up. Looks like a potential 1x10 (or my current 1x12) and and an occasional XLR may well be the way to get the current dream car, and amplify the bass!

This is just the thread I wanted. To the point, no dancing around the edges, just the to-the-point answers I needed. Answers both the monitor and amp-free questions which I've been confused about for ages. I hope others can read this, without trying to go through numerous pages on TB with no conclusion!

As you can tell. I put my driving on a par with my bass playing! They need to co-exist, especially when a 3.5tr is involved......!!

Out of interest, any BC'ers that have used a Barefaced One10 as main cab or monitor?

[stingrayPete1977]

I use a Genz Benz 1x12 as my monitor on most gigs now, I'll even put out at head height sometimes if there's a suitable spot for it. 

[Happy Jack]

5 hours ago, spongebob said:

Out of interest, any BC'ers that have used a Barefaced One10 as main cab or monitor?

Yes to both. Why do you ask?